Original Sin = Doom of Mandos

Maedhros · 02-06-2003, 07:40 PM

If you have read the Quenta Silmarillion, you will notice that when the Ñoldor reach the Wastes of Araman, Mandos appears before them and utters his doom on them. The Ñoldor that went to ME, had that Doom upon them and their children too.
Now going to chrystian myths, you will see the element of the Original Sin, all people born, are born with the Original Sin.
I have to say that I think that it's wrong. The infants are in no way responsible for the actions of their elders and cannot be taken into that sin/doom. Where is the fairness in that?

Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn · 02-06-2003, 07:45 PM

we were just talking about that in history today. I think that infants should not have sinned already just because thousands of years ago, man ate the apple of wisdom

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-06-2003, 07:45 PM

Hello, Maedhros. You know, there's a thread for this already. Go to the offshoot discussion.

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-06-2003, 07:48 PM

L_F_A, it's the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

afro-elf · 02-06-2003, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maedhros
If you have read the Quenta Silmarillion, you will notice that when the Ñoldor reach the Wastes of Araman, Mandos appears before them and utters his doom on them. The Ñoldor that went to ME, had that Doom upon them and their children too.
Now going to chrystian myths, you will see the element of the Original Sin, all people born, are born with the Original Sin.
I have to say that I think that it's wrong. The infants are in no way responsible for the actions of their elders and cannot be taken into that sin/doom. Where is the fairness in that?

Do you want your replies answered based on the general principle of the matter or specifically as Christian or Valarian relies?

LuthienTinuviel · 02-06-2003, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
Do you want your replies answered based on the general principle of the matter or specifically as Christian or Valarian relies?

afro elf, you are such my favourite person.

afro-elf · 02-06-2003, 08:58 PM

Alas! A

symbol

I shall now join Daeron and sing songs of lament.

Maedhros · 02-08-2003, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Do you want your replies answered based on the general principle of the matter or specifically as Christian or Valarian relies?

Christian and Valarian would be the most fitting, but everyone is welcome to say what they feel.
I know of some christians that feel that the original sin concept is wrong.

Artanis · 02-08-2003, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maedhros
I know of some christians that feel that the original sin concept is wrong.

The Christians I know would probably say that God sent his son to save people from the Original Sin, if they choose to believe in Him. Meaning God is not unfair, and that we've got a chance to make the right choice.

Isn't that right?

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-08-2003, 02:34 PM

OK, you'd get the best answers from Rian, but if I am correct, then Adam and Eve were the best the race had to offer. If they failed, then anyone would fail. Also, let me point out that according to Christian belief, infants are not affected by sin, if by this you mean that they go to hell if they die. Only when you reach an age (different for different people) where you truly understand the message of Christianity are you held accountable, I believe.

Finmandos12 · 02-08-2003, 02:34 PM

Quote:

I have to say that I think that it's wrong. The infants are in no way responsible for the actions of their elders and cannot be taken into that sin/doom. Where is the fairness in that?

In an ideal world, obviously, only our choices would affect our lives. However, our ancestor's choices can affect our lives. Take, for example, a crack baby. The baby did not choose to become addicted, its mother took crack. Obviously, thats not fair. However, whether you think its fair or not doesn't change the reality of the situation. Thats just the way it is.

Elven Archer · 02-08-2003, 02:38 PM

you mean if a mother is addicted to crack and has a baby,the baby is gonna be addicted to crack?

Artanis · 02-08-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Only when you reach an age (different for different people) where you truly understand the message of Christianity are you held accountable, I believe.

Is this a personal thing then?

Wayfarer · 02-08-2003, 04:19 PM

*/wonders how the doom of mandos could equate with original sin, when feanor and co had alread screwed up royally in order to get to the place they were.

Arien the Maia · 02-08-2003, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
OK, you'd get the best answers from Rian, but if I am correct, then Adam and Eve were the best the race had to offer. If they failed, then anyone would fail. Also, let me point out that according to Christian belief, infants are not affected by sin, if by this you mean that they go to hell if they die. Only when you reach an age (different for different people) where you truly understand the message of Christianity are you held accountable, I believe.

I believe this too...the age of reason (around 8 years old) is when people are held responsible for their actions. I do however beleive that evryone is born with Original sin...God, in His infinite mercy and wisdom, might allow babies who die before they age of reason.....or as catholocs would say...before they are baptized in to Heaven even though they still have some original sin on them....

Elvellyn · 02-08-2003, 07:19 PM

As far as I know, most Christians, myself included, beleive that humans are born into the nature of sin, not sin itself.

afro-elf · 02-08-2003, 11:00 PM

Maedros I have battle on the religious threads here for a long time. I am going to keep out of this fray.

But, if you so desire check the archives and old post and you'll get my thoughts.

I will just say that I am not a religious person and leave it at that.

Maedhros · 02-09-2003, 12:18 AM

Quote:

wonders how the doom of mandos could equate with original sin, when feanor and co had alread screwed up royally in order to get to the place they were.

Think of it this way. The sons of the Exiled Ñoldor too were under the Doom of Mandos, even thought they had nothing to do with the Kinslaying or following the Exiles to ME. Even if they had wanted to return to ME, they couldn't because it was closed to them.

02-06-2003, 07:40 PM	#1
Maedhros The Tall Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 578	Original Sin = Doom of Mandos If you have read the Quenta Silmarillion, you will notice that when the Ñoldor reach the Wastes of Araman, Mandos appears before them and utters his doom on them. The Ñoldor that went to ME, had that Doom upon them and their children too. Now going to chrystian myths, you will see the element of the Original Sin, all people born, are born with the Original Sin. I have to say that I think that it's wrong. The infants are in no way responsible for the actions of their elders and cannot be taken into that sin/doom. Where is the fairness in that? __________________ “What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.

02-06-2003, 07:45 PM	#2
Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn The Elven Queen Of All Pyros Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Im like a little bug stuck in the lamp...never going anywhere Posts: 795	we were just talking about that in history today. I think that infants should not have sinned already just because thousands of years ago, man ate the apple of wisdom __________________ Would you judge my future based on what i did in the past? Procrastinators Unite!!!.....tomorrrow.... Kids in backseats cause accidents...accidents in backseats cause kids As long as there are tests..there will be prayers in school

02-06-2003, 07:45 PM	#3
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Hello, Maedhros. You know, there's a thread for this already. Go to the offshoot discussion. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 02-06-2003 at 07:52 PM.

02-06-2003, 07:48 PM	#4
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	L_F_A, it's the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

02-06-2003, 08:58 PM	#7
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Alas! A symbol I shall now join Daeron and sing songs of lament. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 02-06-2003 at 09:00 PM.

02-08-2003, 02:34 PM	#10
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	OK, you'd get the best answers from Rian, but if I am correct, then Adam and Eve were the best the race had to offer. If they failed, then anyone would fail. Also, let me point out that according to Christian belief, infants are not affected by sin, if by this you mean that they go to hell if they die. Only when you reach an age (different for different people) where you truly understand the message of Christianity are you held accountable, I believe. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

02-08-2003, 02:38 PM	#12
Elven Archer Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: America! Posts: 480	you mean if a mother is addicted to crack and has a baby,the baby is gonna be addicted to crack? __________________ "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: 'it goes on'." ~robert frost

02-08-2003, 04:19 PM	#14
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	*/wonders how the doom of mandos could equate with original sin, when feanor and co had alread screwed up royally in order to get to the place they were. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-08-2003, 07:19 PM	#16
Elvellyn The Redneck Elf Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: In a house Posts: 539	As far as I know, most Christians, myself included, beleive that humans are born into the nature of sin, not sin itself. __________________ Oliphants make great pets. Last edited by Elvellyn : 02-08-2003 at 07:21 PM.

02-08-2003, 11:00 PM	#17
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Maedros I have battle on the religious threads here for a long time. I am going to keep out of this fray. But, if you so desire check the archives and old post and you'll get my thoughts. I will just say that I am not a religious person and leave it at that. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

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