Finrod betrayed

Kirinki54 · 10-05-2002, 03:52 PM

How is it possible that Celegorm and Curufin could so easily turn the hearts of the people of Nargothrond from Finrod?

Lefty Scaevola · 10-05-2002, 04:07 PM

Fear and Isolationism. Play on the Elve's predjucice against men. Possibly some surepititious use of spells Recall also the curufin was most like his father Feanor, who was highly skilled in oratory and and convincing the Noldor to do the wrong thing..

Kirinki54 · 10-05-2002, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Fear and Isolationism. Play on the Elve's predjucice against men. Possibly some surepititious use of spells Recall also the curufin was most like his father Feanor, who was highly skilled in oratory and and convincing the Noldor to do the wrong thing..

Perhaps all of that. It seems the people of Nargothrond turned into real cowards and ambushers afterwards. Do you think the prejudices against Men were enhanced by Sindarin elements of the population? As for the sons of Feanor, they were truly far to verbal and convincing - it seems they had inherited this quality in far too great amount in comparison to their sense of morality or their abilities for positive creativity.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-06-2002, 12:55 AM

Hiya Kirinki.

I think that the Elves of Nargothrond, or at least most of them lived in the shadow of the Doom of Mandos. I think that when Finrod revealed his intentions and because it involved a Silmaril, that the sons of Feanor were livad, especially since a mortal was at the heart of this quest. Therefore, I don't think that it was a hard thing for them to arouse fear in the hearts of the people of Nargothrond since it all ready existed and just really in a way slumbered.

Kirinki54 · 10-06-2002, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Hiya Kirinki.

I think that the Elves of Nargothrond, or at least most of them lived in the shadow of the Doom of Mandos. I think that when Finrod revealed his intentions and because it involved a Silmaril, that the sons of Feanor were livad, especially since a mortal was at the heart of this quest. Therefore, I don't think that it was a hard thing for them to arouse fear in the hearts of the people of Nargothrond since it all ready existed and just really in a way slumbered.

Hello Sister! Been awhile since I visited this place...

Interesting point. That could have been a big reason why. But still, Finrod ought to have been a popular ruler - at least I have never seen it hinted otherwise. It is still rather a mystery to me why so few listened to his reasons. And as for the Doom of Mandos, consider the main source of the division leaving Finrod with only a company of ten. Were the sons of Feanor considered reliable when it came to the cause of all problems? Their true motives (as well as their guilt for alienating the Elves from the Valar) should have prevented so many of the population of Nargothrond to side with them, IMHO.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-06-2002, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54
Hello Sister! Been awhile since I visited this place...

Interesting point. That could have been a big reason why. But still, Finrod ought to have been a popular ruler - at least I have never seen it hinted otherwise. It is still rather a mystery to me why so few listened to his reasons. And as for the Doom of Mandos, consider the main source of the division leaving Finrod with only a company of ten. Were the sons of Feanor considered reliable when it came to the cause of all problems? Their true motives (as well as their guilt for alienating the Elves from the Valar) should have prevented so many of the population of Nargothrond to side with them, IMHO.

I agree here, but I think the sons of Feanor must have had the gift of gab in a way that could provoke such fear in this huge kingdom of people and turn them against the king. The Sil says that they conjured a vision of war and the utter destruction of Nargothrond. It also says that the words of Feanor's sons were very potent and much like their father's words in Tirion, that first inflamed the Noldor to Rebellion. Also, after the Dagor Bragollach(SP) many of the people that followed the Feanorians came to Nargothrond and sought refuge, so the Sons of Feanor probably had a great following in Nargothrond.

Kirinki54 · 10-06-2002, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I agree here, but I think the sons of Feanor must have had the gift of gab in a way that could provoke such fear in this huge kingdom of people and turn them against the king. The Sil says that they conjured a vision of war and the utter destruction of Nargothrond. It also says that the words of Feanor's sons were very potent and much like their father's words in Tirion, that first inflamed the Noldor to Rebellion. Also, after the Dagor Bragollach(SP) many of the people that followed the Feanorians came to Nargothrond and sought refuge, so the Sons of Feanor probably had a great following in Nargothrond.

Sad but true!

I guess it still nags me that one of the greatest Elves that ever lived could so easily be toppled by rethorics and twisted politics. And ultimately doomed. But, this is apparently what did happen.
I think this has been speculated before, but would someone care to guess about the most important consequences had Celegorm and Curufin failed in this regard?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-07-2002, 04:03 PM

Quote:

I think this has been speculated before, but would someone care to guess about the most important consequences had Celegorm and Curufin failed in this regard?

I think that had the people of Nargothrond's hearts been in the right place, they would have driven the Feanorians out then, instead of waiting til Finrod's death to discover thier malice towards him and Luthien. Finrod would probably have had more followers on that quest and perhaps lived. I wonder why Celegorm and Curifin did not remain with their own kindred after Dagor Bragalloch, or why Finrod even allowed them admittance to Nargothrond. They had certianly showed him and his brothers malice in the past. Guess he was just a forgiving guy, and it cost him.

Kirinki54 · 10-08-2002, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Guess he was just a forgiving guy, and it cost him.

He was. Apart from all his other positive aspects, IMO Finrod was the closest thing to a martyr of all Elves Tolkien depicted. IIRC.

***RÃan*** · 10-08-2002, 07:39 PM

I was so shocked the first time I read that part, I couldn't believe how Finrod's own people would turn against him so unanimously. Only 10 people went with him, I think - unbelievable! I wish I could have jumped into the story and knocked some sense into those people!! I think the reasons that people listed above - curse of Mandos, fear, dislike of men, extremely skillful speaking of Feanor's sons, etc. explained it somewhat, but I still am shocked at that part.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-08-2002, 09:08 PM

Always made me think twice about guys like Gwindor.

Finrod Felagund · 10-09-2002, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54
How is it possible that Celegorm and Curufin could so easily turn the hearts of the people of Nargothrond from Finrod?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!! CELEGORM AND CURUFIN!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!

Lefty Scaevola · 10-10-2002, 11:43 AM

Although Celegorm and Curufin achieved some level of infulence in Nargothreod, they themselves did not become leaders or suplant the throng, and even Oredereth power was limited, bith then and later. The people were likely dismayed by all the disaster and pain which the leadership of Finwe's house had brought them, and their action was more in the vein of rejecting all such learship, rather than supplanting one with another. There had no traditions of other goverment, thus they were pretty much limited to weakening the Kingship to do this.

Lefty Scaevola · 10-10-2002, 11:58 AM

Reading the book, is is often difficult to concieve of the anguish, pain, and terror that were working on these charactors in the War of the Great Jewels. Recall that the eldar were a remarkable combination of primitive developemnt in many areas and advanced development in other. Many of the citizens of Nargothrond were born before writing was developed. In a society of immortals, philoshophical concepts can be inhibited in evolution. You have the same great philosophers alive for generations dominating the discussions of what society, government, and elves should be. Rather than new ideas, you tend get get extreme refinment of old themes.
This would make it very had for them to deal with disasters to their society. With Morgoth smashing their armies, they are frightened not only for what he can do them, but because the choices most of them can concieve with thier limited traditions do not appear to give them much hope. They they do not know how to manage their relationship with the King in new ways. They know the policies of the kings are failing them, and they have no idea how to make it better. They then reject leardership and involvement in the the war and policies, yet they are ashamed of that, and have no viable alternatives. I would expect this stress would lead to a large amount of emotional and unwise behavior, and much though of "Anything has to be better than what we are doing now". There would likely be slightly anarchic conditions at times, followed by reactions of obedience and duty.

Maedhros · 11-07-2002, 01:18 AM

Quote:

I was so shocked the first time I read that part, I couldn't believe how Finrod's own people would turn against him so unanimously. Only 10 people went with him, I think - unbelievable! I wish I could have jumped into the story and knocked some sense into those people!! I think the reasons that people listed above - curse of Mandos, fear, dislike of men, extremely skillful speaking of Feanor's sons, etc. explained it somewhat, but I still am shocked at that part.

If the people of Nargothrond would have followed Finrod, then a great disaster might have ocurred. The sons of FÃ«anor would have had the obligation to attack Nargothrond, and thus create a great struggle between the Ã‘oldor.

I wonder if the great Maedhros would have attacked his cousin Finrod if he knew that they had the Silmaril in Nargothrond.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 11-07-2002, 01:53 AM

Quote:

I wonder if the great Maedhros would have attacked his cousin Finrod if he knew that they had the Silmaril in Nargothrond.

Of course he would have. He was bound by the Oath. That for me was one of the sad parts to the character of Maedhros. He and Maglor were at heart good guys. They couldn't escape the oath though and one of the big reasons I think Maedhros threw himself into the firey chasm was not just to escape the pain of the Silmaril, but for the guilt of all that had befallen evil at the hands of the Oath of his father.

***Earniel*** · 11-08-2002, 07:02 PM

Somehow I think the situation would have been different if the silmaril had ended up in Nargothrond. The sons of FeÃ¤nor had little love for the Thingol but Finrod was of their kin and had followed them into exile for their cause. I doubt they would have attacked him so suddenly and stealthy as they did with DÃ*or. Of course if Celegorm and Curufin still resided in Nargothrond they may have found another means to get the silmaril from Finrod. Seeing their thrustworthy nature I wouldn't be surprised if they would try to simply steal it

And also as long as LÃºthien had the silmaril the sons of FeÃ¤nor stirred not. Their oath didn't seem so binding then. Only when the silmaril passed to DÃ*or and Elwing did they react.

10-05-2002, 03:52 PM	#1
Kirinki54 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: European Union Posts: 463	Finrod betrayed How is it possible that Celegorm and Curufin could so easily turn the hearts of the people of Nargothrond from Finrod? __________________ 'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.'

10-08-2002, 07:39 PM	#10
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	I was so shocked the first time I read that part, I couldn't believe how Finrod's own people would turn against him so unanimously. Only 10 people went with him, I think - unbelievable! I wish I could have jumped into the story and knocked some sense into those people!! I think the reasons that people listed above - curse of Mandos, fear, dislike of men, extremely skillful speaking of Feanor's sons, etc. explained it somewhat, but I still am shocked at that part. __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva!

10-10-2002, 11:58 AM	#14
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Reading the book, is is often difficult to concieve of the anguish, pain, and terror that were working on these charactors in the War of the Great Jewels. Recall that the eldar were a remarkable combination of primitive developemnt in many areas and advanced development in other. Many of the citizens of Nargothrond were born before writing was developed. In a society of immortals, philoshophical concepts can be inhibited in evolution. You have the same great philosophers alive for generations dominating the discussions of what society, government, and elves should be. Rather than new ideas, you tend get get extreme refinment of old themes. This would make it very had for them to deal with disasters to their society. With Morgoth smashing their armies, they are frightened not only for what he can do them, but because the choices most of them can concieve with thier limited traditions do not appear to give them much hope. They they do not know how to manage their relationship with the King in new ways. They know the policies of the kings are failing them, and they have no idea how to make it better. They then reject leardership and involvement in the the war and policies, yet they are ashamed of that, and have no viable alternatives. I would expect this stress would lead to a large amount of emotional and unwise behavior, and much though of "Anything has to be better than what we are doing now". There would likely be slightly anarchic conditions at times, followed by reactions of obedience and duty. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 10-10-2002 at 12:03 PM.

11-08-2002, 07:02 PM	#17
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Somehow I think the situation would have been different if the silmaril had ended up in Nargothrond. The sons of FeÃ¤nor had little love for the Thingol but Finrod was of their kin and had followed them into exile for their cause. I doubt they would have attacked him so suddenly and stealthy as they did with DÃor. Of course if Celegorm and Curufin still resided in Nargothrond they may have found another means to get the silmaril from Finrod. Seeing their thrustworthy nature I wouldn't be surprised if they would try to simply steal it And also as long as LÃºthien had the silmaril the sons of FeÃ¤nor stirred not. Their oath didn't seem so binding then. Only when the silmaril passed to DÃor and Elwing did they react. __________________ We are not things.

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10-05-2002, 04:07 PM	#2
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Fear and Isolationism. Play on the Elve's predjucice against men. Possibly some surepititious use of spells Recall also the curufin was most like his father Feanor, who was highly skilled in oratory and and convincing the Noldor to do the wrong thing..

10-06-2002, 12:55 AM	#4
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Hiya Kirinki. I think that the Elves of Nargothrond, or at least most of them lived in the shadow of the Doom of Mandos. I think that when Finrod revealed his intentions and because it involved a Silmaril, that the sons of Feanor were livad, especially since a mortal was at the heart of this quest. Therefore, I don't think that it was a hard thing for them to arouse fear in the hearts of the people of Nargothrond since it all ready existed and just really in a way slumbered.

10-08-2002, 09:08 PM	#11
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Always made me think twice about guys like Gwindor.

10-10-2002, 11:43 AM	#13
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Although Celegorm and Curufin achieved some level of infulence in Nargothreod, they themselves did not become leaders or suplant the throng, and even Oredereth power was limited, bith then and later. The people were likely dismayed by all the disaster and pain which the leadership of Finwe's house had brought them, and their action was more in the vein of rejecting all such learship, rather than supplanting one with another. There had no traditions of other goverment, thus they were pretty much limited to weakening the Kingship to do this.