a clockwork orange

katya · 08-09-2002, 10:32 PM

has anyone ever read a clockwork orange by Anthony Burgess? i would love to talk about it with someone or hear what you have to say about it. i would be interested in knowing your opinion on the movie as well, if you haven't read the book. By teh way, if you have, was there a seventh chapter in the third section? it was left out of some editions, and the movie. that completely changed a lot of the whole idea, but anyway, please post.

webwizard333 · 08-20-2002, 08:44 AM

I tried to start reading it a couple of weeks ago, but within the first few pages I loathed the characters and couldn't care less about their fortunes (picking on the poor old man). Though, I thought the language was pretty clever. I'll probably try to read it again later this year.

katya · 08-20-2002, 05:46 PM

oh yeah i can understand that... but eventually i actually did come to care for alex a little. you would probably have had to read the whole thing to understand why he is so evil. i guess no one has read this book eh?

johnnyrod · 09-10-2002, 05:30 PM

I read it a number of years ago; you can do it in one sitting if you're bored, and it helps you get your head around the language. Whether or not it makes any political points is up to you, I found it pretty distasteful. Alex was basically a scumbag who was portrayed as having little conscious control over his actions. If you want my honest opinion, Burgess set out to make a rather weak point by means that would get him noticed.

I don't know about any missing bits, and I haven't seen the film I'm afraid. I just re-read what I typed above, I guess it comes across a bit strong. This book is another Damien Hirst half-sheep in formaldehyde if you ask me. And you did...

Hasty Ent · 09-10-2002, 07:10 PM

Made a serious attempt to read it many years ago. However, I had to put it down at the scene where someone's (Alex?) eyelids are peeled back while he's forced to watch scenes of horror with a classical music (Beethoven?) soundtrack. Couldn't cope with another line after that. I believe that shocking your audience can be a useful tactic, for instance, I really like Damien Hirst's work! However, in the case of A Clockwork Orange, I truly couldn't stomach it...

Starr Polish · 09-12-2002, 05:48 PM

I've started reading it, and getting through it is like trudging through thick, sticky mud in heavy boots...but I'm determined to finish it.

I haven't gotten to the movie with classical music scenes, yet, but I don't think that will get to me, since he naturally sees horrific things when he listens to classical music on his own, and rapes two little girls while listening to it (at least, that's what I got from those scenes).

katya · 09-14-2002, 08:19 AM

i guess i am weird then because those sort of scenes didn't really bother me much. i mean they did, but not. a few years ago there would be no way i could've read it. whoever said something about alex having no control over his actions, it's true, and completely opposite as well. he really has no control when he goes through the treatment thing. thats the whole point. was he better or worse because of it? in a way, a man who chooses evil is better than one who is forced to do good. however, in the last chapter alex himself realizes something about how he wasn't really in control or something, i dont remember exactly. oh yeah by the way, if you don't read the whole thing, or at least through part two a bit, there's no way you can understand the point. and also, the soundtrack is really good.

johnnyrod · 09-20-2002, 08:04 PM

Not much in the way of positive replies, I see? No surprise I guess. What was the bit that was left out to which you originally referred? And what bearing does it have? I read this almost ten years ago (okay, make me feel old) and "lent" my book to someone straight after... never saw it again. I've also ben thinking about it a bit and I still can't see much political undercurrent. Maybe I'm just stupid or it's been too long; the closest thing I came up with is a tenuous link with faith and acceptance, but I doubt it's meant to be in there.

katya · 09-21-2002, 12:51 PM

ok in the end, there is a 7th chapter in part 3. it was left out because the publishers though the people would like it better that way. this is what happens:

alex gets new "droogs", but no longer enjoys his ultra-violence as much. he meets up with his old droog, pete, and he has settled down, and has a wife and everthing. alex gets to thinking, "you know, i should settle down myself." and so on. he even says something to his new droogs about how terrible everything they are doing is. in essence, he does finally choose good. and that is much better than when he was forced into it.

i dont remember all of it because i dont own that chapter, but i'm sure one could find it on the internet easily enough. thats where i found it al least.

johnnyrod · 09-21-2002, 08:00 PM

Strewth, and I thought it was trite already. I find that rather hard to believe. Picture it, Alex is a little **** who does a number of unspeakable things before he's hauled in by the feds. When they let him out, after a bit of blundering around in some sort of "disarmed" kinda way (cue extremely silly feminist arguements relating to castration, but you get the picture) he gets back to where he was, with a new haircut and a new circle of friends. So far so good, but to try to make us think that Alex has learned something from it all, I think it would take more than a chapter to convince me. Without the extra bit, surely the pointlessness of his conditioning becomes all the more apparant? What is the point Burgess is driving at otherwise?

Wanna know something really mad.... I went to the uni where the film was made (Brunel). I didn't go to see it, but they showed the film one evening in the same lecture theatre in which it was filmed (hte eye-clips bits). If you want to know all about it I'll tell you.

katya · 09-21-2002, 08:24 PM

um, yeah. i don't think it had anything to do with the conditioning that he chose good. i think he really does though i dont see why i wouldnt be convinced because after all burgess was the one who gets to decide what happens, no matter what really wouldve happened if it was real life. anyway, its kind of an odd book in a way just the way it is written but it gets the point across i think, at least to me it did. i suppose the way it was written helped to do that. a lot of people dont understand though. have you read the chapter, johnnyrod? you might try it because i might have explained it badly (most likely). oh yeah by the way that is interesting that you went there. i liked the movie. kubrick is awesome. and the soundtrack is great, as i mentioned before.

johnnyrod · 09-21-2002, 08:49 PM

I can't say I've read the extra material, but I'm sure your precis is sufficient. So what difference does it make to the point? That we're all young and determinedly stupid but we grow out of it? You obviously have something to say on it. You're right about the writing though, it does add to the scene; someone told me the slang is based on Russian. Kubrick is always good, true.

katya · 09-21-2002, 08:56 PM

um well i think that what the book is about is basically free will. think about the title. a clockwork orange. that is what alex became after the treatment. a living thing that works like clockwork, mechanical. the question (asked by the "charlie" (chaplain)) is whether it is better to be forced to do good or to chose evil. how pointless would the world be if we were all "conditioned"? the ending is like saying, there is hope. alex does chose good. so now he is even better than he was oroginall ywhich (in a way) was better than he was after the conditioning. (not that he was good before the conditioning-not by a long shot) that is all i can manage to say right now. i am tired.

katya · 09-21-2002, 08:59 PM

oh yeah about the slang. quite a bit is based on russian. i think someone in the prison says that is comes from propaganda-subliminal penetration. however no more is said about that. i like the slang. the funny thing is i remember most of it still. i like the word viddie a lot. that doesnt come from russian though...but horrorshow does. it is a clever little alteration. i dont know the original word (slovo!) however.

Starr Polish · 09-22-2002, 03:11 PM

I just finished, and it did have the seventh chapter.

I still didn't like the book, or the character. They both gave me pain in my 'gulliver'.

You're right, Alex does meet up with Pete in the last chapter. He kind of figures out that the reason he no longer enjoys his ultra-violence is because he's 'growing up', or 'not such a young age' anymore. Then yhe goes about thinking he shoudl get a wife and have a son, and teach his son to not be like him. He's not stupid though, and realizes that his son will do what he wants, even when warned of the consequences. The same will happen to the son's son, and so on and so forth.

osszie · 10-06-2002, 07:20 PM

IMO opinion the book is about personal (self) change.

Burgess is saying that no matter who you are, what you do, or how many people try to change you, or whatever punishment others deem fit for action at the end only you can decide who and what you are going to be. It's freewill

On a slightly more somber note it is also saying a lot about prejudice. Even if you do change, others will always judge you on your previous actions

FoolofaTook · 10-13-2002, 01:50 PM

I read the book and I thought it was quite good. I loved the language in it; I thought it was neat. In the last chapter Burgess is trying to say that with age comes wisdom. Alex got older and realized that he didn't want to live like that anymore.

katya · 10-13-2002, 02:40 PM

finally, someone else who liked it. welcome, foolofatook

08-09-2002, 10:32 PM	#1
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	a clockwork orange has anyone ever read a clockwork orange by Anthony Burgess? i would love to talk about it with someone or hear what you have to say about it. i would be interested in knowing your opinion on the movie as well, if you haven't read the book. By teh way, if you have, was there a seventh chapter in the third section? it was left out of some editions, and the movie. that completely changed a lot of the whole idea, but anyway, please post.

08-20-2002, 08:44 AM	#2
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	I tried to start reading it a couple of weeks ago, but within the first few pages I loathed the characters and couldn't care less about their fortunes (picking on the poor old man). Though, I thought the language was pretty clever. I'll probably try to read it again later this year. __________________ Boo!

09-10-2002, 05:30 PM	#4
johnnyrod Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Scunthorpe, UK Posts: 166	I read it a number of years ago; you can do it in one sitting if you're bored, and it helps you get your head around the language. Whether or not it makes any political points is up to you, I found it pretty distasteful. Alex was basically a scumbag who was portrayed as having little conscious control over his actions. If you want my honest opinion, Burgess set out to make a rather weak point by means that would get him noticed. I don't know about any missing bits, and I haven't seen the film I'm afraid. I just re-read what I typed above, I guess it comes across a bit strong. This book is another Damien Hirst half-sheep in formaldehyde if you ask me. And you did... __________________ Frodo Lives!

09-12-2002, 05:48 PM	#6
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	I've started reading it, and getting through it is like trudging through thick, sticky mud in heavy boots...but I'm determined to finish it. I haven't gotten to the movie with classical music scenes, yet, but I don't think that will get to me, since he naturally sees horrific things when he listens to classical music on his own, and rapes two little girls while listening to it (at least, that's what I got from those scenes). __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell Last edited by Starr Polish : 09-12-2002 at 06:06 PM.

09-20-2002, 08:04 PM	#8
johnnyrod Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Scunthorpe, UK Posts: 166	Not much in the way of positive replies, I see? No surprise I guess. What was the bit that was left out to which you originally referred? And what bearing does it have? I read this almost ten years ago (okay, make me feel old) and "lent" my book to someone straight after... never saw it again. I've also ben thinking about it a bit and I still can't see much political undercurrent. Maybe I'm just stupid or it's been too long; the closest thing I came up with is a tenuous link with faith and acceptance, but I doubt it's meant to be in there. __________________ Frodo Lives!

08-20-2002, 05:46 PM	#3
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	oh yeah i can understand that... but eventually i actually did come to care for alex a little. you would probably have had to read the whole thing to understand why he is so evil. i guess no one has read this book eh?

09-10-2002, 07:10 PM	#5
Hasty Ent Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 516	Made a serious attempt to read it many years ago. However, I had to put it down at the scene where someone's (Alex?) eyelids are peeled back while he's forced to watch scenes of horror with a classical music (Beethoven?) soundtrack. Couldn't cope with another line after that. I believe that shocking your audience can be a useful tactic, for instance, I really like Damien Hirst's work! However, in the case of A Clockwork Orange, I truly couldn't stomach it...

09-14-2002, 08:19 AM	#7
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	i guess i am weird then because those sort of scenes didn't really bother me much. i mean they did, but not. a few years ago there would be no way i could've read it. whoever said something about alex having no control over his actions, it's true, and completely opposite as well. he really has no control when he goes through the treatment thing. thats the whole point. was he better or worse because of it? in a way, a man who chooses evil is better than one who is forced to do good. however, in the last chapter alex himself realizes something about how he wasn't really in control or something, i dont remember exactly. oh yeah by the way, if you don't read the whole thing, or at least through part two a bit, there's no way you can understand the point. and also, the soundtrack is really good.

09-21-2002, 08:00 PM	#10
johnnyrod Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Scunthorpe, UK Posts: 166	Strewth, and I thought it was trite already. I find that rather hard to believe. Picture it, Alex is a little **** who does a number of unspeakable things before he's hauled in by the feds. When they let him out, after a bit of blundering around in some sort of "disarmed" kinda way (cue extremely silly feminist arguements relating to castration, but you get the picture) he gets back to where he was, with a new haircut and a new circle of friends. So far so good, but to try to make us think that Alex has learned something from it all, I think it would take more than a chapter to convince me. Without the extra bit, surely the pointlessness of his conditioning becomes all the more apparant? What is the point Burgess is driving at otherwise? Wanna know something really mad.... I went to the uni where the film was made (Brunel). I didn't go to see it, but they showed the film one evening in the same lecture theatre in which it was filmed (hte eye-clips bits). If you want to know all about it I'll tell you. __________________ Frodo Lives!

09-21-2002, 08:24 PM	#11
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	um, yeah. i don't think it had anything to do with the conditioning that he chose good. i think he really does though i dont see why i wouldnt be convinced because after all burgess was the one who gets to decide what happens, no matter what really wouldve happened if it was real life. anyway, its kind of an odd book in a way just the way it is written but it gets the point across i think, at least to me it did. i suppose the way it was written helped to do that. a lot of people dont understand though. have you read the chapter, johnnyrod? you might try it because i might have explained it badly (most likely). oh yeah by the way that is interesting that you went there. i liked the movie. kubrick is awesome. and the soundtrack is great, as i mentioned before.

09-21-2002, 08:49 PM	#12
johnnyrod Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Scunthorpe, UK Posts: 166	I can't say I've read the extra material, but I'm sure your precis is sufficient. So what difference does it make to the point? That we're all young and determinedly stupid but we grow out of it? You obviously have something to say on it. You're right about the writing though, it does add to the scene; someone told me the slang is based on Russian. Kubrick is always good, true. __________________ Frodo Lives!

09-21-2002, 08:56 PM	#13
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	um well i think that what the book is about is basically free will. think about the title. a clockwork orange. that is what alex became after the treatment. a living thing that works like clockwork, mechanical. the question (asked by the "charlie" (chaplain)) is whether it is better to be forced to do good or to chose evil. how pointless would the world be if we were all "conditioned"? the ending is like saying, there is hope. alex does chose good. so now he is even better than he was oroginall ywhich (in a way) was better than he was after the conditioning. (not that he was good before the conditioning-not by a long shot) that is all i can manage to say right now. i am tired.

09-21-2002, 08:59 PM	#14
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	oh yeah about the slang. quite a bit is based on russian. i think someone in the prison says that is comes from propaganda-subliminal penetration. however no more is said about that. i like the slang. the funny thing is i remember most of it still. i like the word viddie a lot. that doesnt come from russian though...but horrorshow does. it is a clever little alteration. i dont know the original word (slovo!) however.

10-06-2002, 07:20 PM	#16
osszie Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 409	IMO opinion the book is about personal (self) change. Burgess is saying that no matter who you are, what you do, or how many people try to change you, or whatever punishment others deem fit for action at the end only you can decide who and what you are going to be. It's freewill On a slightly more somber note it is also saying a lot about prejudice. Even if you do change, others will always judge you on your previous actions

10-13-2002, 01:50 PM	#17
FoolofaTook Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: ??? Posts: 214	I read the book and I thought it was quite good. I loved the language in it; I thought it was neat. In the last chapter Burgess is trying to say that with age comes wisdom. Alex got older and realized that he didn't want to live like that anymore.

10-13-2002, 02:40 PM	#18
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	finally, someone else who liked it. welcome, foolofatook

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Cooking and food thread	Insidious Rex	General Messages	262	09-29-2020 01:58 AM
Classical Music	hectorberlioz	Entertainment Forum	1001	03-27-2006 04:20 AM
A Clockwork Orange	Ruinel	Entertainment Forum	23	08-04-2003 10:20 PM
Recipes	jerseydevil	General Messages	14	04-05-2002 12:06 AM
Orange County	notthatinnocent	Entertainment Forum	3	02-19-2002 04:31 AM