Who Really Killed the Witch King in ROTK??

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Hmm. It is my belief that there is/was just one spell on WiKi, the Ring-induced one, and the barrow-blade broke it. I have no textual support for this either, but the simplest answer is usually the best, IMO.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

...I am not sure I agree with this:

Maybe, maybe... but if a nazgul is drawn into the world of the living, wouldn't he become visible in the first place? And that didn't happen:

There was still nothing visible between crown and mantle when she struck - thus I doubt the nazgul was back in the World of light.

Speculation on my part about how the knives – both Barrow-blade and Morgul-knife – might operate. They may have no similar function (besides, this is all fantasy magic!), but they do seem to be mirrors of one another, do they not? The Morgul-knife drew Frodo into the shadow-world. The Barrow-blade made the Witch-king vulnerable to Éowyn’s blow.

Of course, there is that citation of Aragorn: “all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.� That indicates that the Witch-king had been pierced – wounded – before, but either the wounds were without effect, or he healed (presumably necromantically, since normal healing would not likely be possible), or he was simply invulnerable (in which case Aragorn was either mistaken, speaking poetically, or I misunderstand Tolkien’s text).

Clearly, though, something filled the clothing the Witch-king wore, and that something was his physical body, albeit transferred into the shadow-world. Gandalf alluded to their situation in his conversation with Frodo after the hobbit awoke in Rivendell:

You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you.

The indication is that they still possessed physical bodies, but in the wraith-world.

There is a passage in Morgoth’s Ring, “Aman and Mortal Men�, pp 429-430, explaining that any Mortal who entered Aman or Valinor did not lose his Mortality, as Sauron convinced Ar-Pharazôn, but the natural balance between the hröa (body) and fëa (soul) would be upset. Once in Valinor, it was believed the fëa of a Mortal would seek to leave the hröa, and that if it were unable to do this, the fëa would go mad; while if the fëa departed, the hröa would act without guidance, effectively becoming a monster. Sauron’s necromancy seems to me to have duplicated this trap for Mortals through the Rings in Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by frodomerryandaragornrock

Thank you everyone for your comments!!! i appreciate them!!

Are you kidding? We intend to beat this horse to death!

Oh… is that an undead horse? Where did they put a Ring on that thing… Ohh...

[Gordis]

Firstly I want to state that I have not a slightest doubt that the nazgul had physical bodies, albeit invisible.

Secondly, if we go speculating, I also have a theory. I believe the WK had been pierced by a blade before, but not necessarily by a Barrow-blade. I think the major difference between ordinary blades and BD blades is that the former disintegrate at once, at the first contact with nazgul blood - so they simply can't do much damage. The enspelled blades do disintegrate, but later, after the damage is done.

Speculation on my part about how the knives – both Barrow-blade and Morgul-knife – might operate. They may have no similar function (besides, this is all fantasy magic!), but they do seem to be mirrors of one another, do they not? The Morgul-knife drew Frodo into the shadow-world. The Barrow-blade made the Witch-king vulnerable to Éowyn’s blow.

But Frodo had been vulnerable to the nazgul blow before - as was any living thing. So the situation is different, IMO

[Butterbeer]

.... flogging dead horses are we?

Well.. it's below burning dead badgers, and flombaying ferrets in my normal hobbies list...

but heh-ho .... those of us that are feverish and in bed cannot be picky


................

some thoughts:

Concur on the especial relevance of the barrow-blades and Alcuin has noted the relevant passage already that no oher blade would be so deadly...

and therefore Gor (hello bw ) as Sam had also one of these very same blades ... had he smitten a wraith as the movie mogul wanted..it is therefore consistent of ol' JRR to comment he would have stumbled or fallen -

i must say also that though sometimes we men DO think Women come from another planet sometimes... i think it fair that they are by dent of being 'man' inthe sense that, say... a hobbit can be deemed part man -

ie Human - i always thought it a bit odd that part - but there you see the prophecy was not designating the species at all

it was far more literal ... in theory an effeminate or homosexual male that considered himself 'no man' may have done the trick...

which, given the inevitable remakes down the years to come... gives pause for thought





..........................


Did the Nazgul eat, regardless of need?

WEll.. it is almost Canon now that they were fond of strawberries - but as JRR never (sadly) got the chance to verify this...that must, ultimately be left open for consideration....


For myself, i am not sure the nazgul were impervious to normal blows per se..more that the barrow blades were specialised with runes and had special import to the Witch king -

cleaarly, he seems to have thought long and well on the prophecy... this in itself lends itself to the idea that he could suffer pyhsical damage -

the question more specifically to my mind is: how much did the barrow blades and their runes and even perhaps their age... make him vulnerable to actually sever his fëa from whatever wraith form his hröa actually exhibited or co-existed at / in?


as to the initial question, well one must say Eowyn did it..but surely Merry's part was instrumental in it -

but it is fatuous in the extreme to start down that path... for to do so would lead to a cast of thousands...for eg we could say merry ol Tom was jointly, albiet tennuously part of the team


..can you imagine if they started handing out medals or Gongs?.. it would go on longer than the Oscars



Best BB

[Gordis]

Hi, BB, nice to meet you!

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

but it is fatuous in the extreme to start down that path... for to do so would lead to a cast of thousands...for eg we could say merry ol Tom was jointly, albiet tennuously part of the team


..can you imagine if they started handing out medals or Gongs?.. it would go on longer than the Oscars

Right. I have even read a fic that tries to convince the readers that another runner for that Oscar was ...Legolas.
How so? He killed a Fell Beast with an arrow - and it was the best FB of the nine, so at the Pelennor , the poor Wiki got a much inferior, very stupid beast who didn't know how to bite without exposing its neck to angry Rohan girls.

So, it was Legolas who killed Wiki!

[Butterbeer]

..you've convinced me !

well, case closed then, heh? It was Legolas!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Yeah, but if Thranduil hadn't gotten jiggy with Leggy's mom then that wouldn't have been possible. I credit SEX with the entire affair!

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

WEll.. it is almost Canon now that they were fond of strawberries - but as JRR never (sadly) got the chance to verify this...that must, ultimately be left open for consideration....

Strawbabies? Nazgûl gots strawbabies?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

i must say also that though sometimes we men DO think Women come from another planet sometimes...

*tries to hide her luggage tags*

Originally Posted by Attalus

How's this?

Looks good! Thanks!

[frodomerryandaragornrock]

"Are you kidding? We intend to beat this horse to death!

Oh… is that an undead horse? Where did they put a Ring on that thing… Ohh.."


thanks a lot, Alcuin! Very funny!!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

WiKi had to have been stabbed by a blade before. Otherwise, how could anyone know to state that "all blades perish" that pierce him?

[Gordis]

Exactly. But it wasn't necessarily a Barrow-blade...

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I don't think it could have been a Barrow-blade. I think without fairly quick aid from Sauron, a Barrow-blade would have killed him.

[Gordis]

Well, Wiki himself was not bad in sorcery... Maybe a puncture by a Morgul knife could help?

[Rían]

we need the popcorn-eating smilie on this board!

[Noble Elf Lord]

To cut the long story short, let's just say that I agree with Alcuin's first post. Great ideas. Which is not to say that others wouldn't have had good ones too.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

we need the popcorn-eating smilie on this board!

How's this?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I believe we're all in agreement mostly.

[Attalus]

Huh, where are the Merry-killed-the-Witch-King-and-Eowyn-was-just-a-spectator loons when you want them?

[frodomerryandaragornrock]

here's another supporter of my case that i found on another lotr website (not like there'e any of those, right??) :http://www.barrowdowns.com/articles_...rdofnazgul.php

THANX every1!!!