Origins of Smaug

[AndMorgothCame.]

Smaug, the last of the Uruloki, is the only Dragon around during the Third Age (that we know of), but I have never read or come across information on his beginnings. Was he the offspring of earlier dragons? I've never heard of dragon reproduction, and I believe all were created by Melkor. . .
Other than the theory of him being the last of the Fire Drakes of the North who flew into Erebor and settled, is there any other writing, rumor, or word about where he came from, and if he ever knew Melkor as a master?

And what luck that Smaug and the Balrog of Moria should be slain before the war of the Third Age. Those two may have assured a win for Sauron.

[Valandil]

What did luck have to do with it?

Welcome to Entmoot, 'AndMorgothCame'.

I'll have to do a little research to address your question - but I thank you for bringing this up. It's a good topic.

I'm pretty sure we don't have anything definitively telling us that Smaug was the very last dragon of all. I had always assumed that the earliest dragons created by Morgoth DID indeed reproduce (as we know Orcs did - whatever their origins). But that assumption may be wrong.

Implications I've gathered are that there were a number of dragons running around in the remote north in earlier times - but perhaps they just didn't care to venture down into the rest of the world.

I can think of at least two other dragons from earlier in the Third Age - Scatha, who was slain by Fram, son of Frumgar, of Eotheod and the great cold-drake who slew Dain I.

You mention both dragons and the Balrog of Moria. Interesting that both preyed mostly upon Dwarves.

I hope we get a good more discussion on this.

[AndMorgothCame.]

Thanks for welcoming, Valandil, I completely forgot about Scatha! If only Tolkien could have lived another lifetime to fill more pages with more lore. . . (and yet he wrote and imagined enough for many lifetimes)
And I can see why they prey on Dwarves, since Dwarves and Dragons seem to be the most alike in greed, no?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by AndMorgothCame.

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And I can see why they prey on Dwarves, since Dwarves and Dragons seem to be the most alike in greed, no?

Yes - just interesting that the Balrog also afflicted chiefly the Dwarves. Coincidence, I think - or maybe the fact that the Dwarves were most inclined to be found in a place where a Balrog might choose to hide.

[Valandil]

PS: if you're interested, one of my fanfics - linked in my sig - suggests another Third Age encounter with a dragon. It's meant to be the same cold-drake who later slays Dain I - but the story is set almost 1600 years earlier.

If interested - see 'Visitors Come to Court'

[Alcuin]

Valandil, you took my thunder. I wrote a lovely little post, and found you had already posted the information. So I decided to hash the years: I had not associated Dáin I with Scatha.

Fram son of Frumgar slew Scatha the Worm in the north of the Vales of Anduin, just two generations before the Éothéod moved south to Calenardhon and renamed it Rohan. Fram’s son was Léod, and Léod’s son was Eorl the Young. Eorl and the Éothéod rode to Gondor’s rescue in 2510, so Fram might have killed Scatha sometime around the middle of the twenty-fifth century of the Third Age. I think it’s reasonable to place this event before Léod was born or was still a boy: neither Frumgar nor Léod are mentioned as being involved. The silver horn with horses engraved upon it that Éowyn and Éomer gave to Merry, which Merry blew during the Scouring of the Shire, came from the horde of Scatha the Worm.

From the information we’re given in Appendix A, “The House of Eorl�, and Appendix B, we can determine that Léod was born about 2459. We know that Léod died at age 42, when Eorl was 16, and the scholars of Gondor had calculated the year Eorl was born.

• 2459 - Léod son of Fram son of Frumgar born
• 2485 - Eorl the Young born to Léod
• 2501 - Léod dies; Eorl the Young becomes King of the Éothéod
• 2510 - Eorl the Young rides to the succor of Gondor
• 2545 - “Eorl falls in battle in the Woldâ€�
• 3119 - Éowyn and Éomer give Merry the horn from the horde of Scatha the Worm

I tabulated all the births, deaths, and reigns of the kings of Rohan along with Léod king of the Éothéod, and then I ran some figures on when Fram was likely born (using the means and medians of the spacing between their births): that would be about 2431. (Give or take 6 or 7 years: data available upon request, or you can wait for me to post it elsewhere with a link here.)

Dáin I and his second son, Frór, were killed at the door of Dáin’s hall by “a great cold-drake� in the year 2589. I am not quite certain what a “cold-drake� is, but I think it was simply a dragon that did not breath fire. The first dragons Morgoth bred were not fire-breathing, I believe. The other thing is that Dáin died after Eorl did: Scatha the Worm had been dead several decades.

Smaug attacked Erebor in 2770, nearly 200 years after Dáin died, about 300 years after Fram killed Scatha.

Smaug, Scatha, and cold-drakes – it sounds as if there were a number of dragons, fire-breathing and otherwise, in the north of Middle-earth, at least mid-way through the third millennium of the Third Age. Smaug seems to have been the biggest and meanest, “a most specially greedy, strong and wicked worm,� as Thorin described him to Bilbo. In context, he might simply have followed the Dwarves to Erebor to prey upon them after Thrór, Thorin’s grandfather, removed his folk back to the Lonely Mountain after his father and brother were killed in their own hall.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by AndMorgothCame.

Smaug, the last of the Uruloki, is the only Dragon around during the Third Age (that we know of), but I have never read or come across information on his beginnings. Was he the offspring of earlier dragons? I've never heard of dragon reproduction, and I believe all were created by Melkor. . .

A pity that dragons didn't put as much stock in genealogy as did Hobbits. It might have been interesting in tracing Smaug descent and see in what manner he descended from the illustrious dragons of the First Age. In this I have Ancalagon pegged as a possible direct ancestor as opposed to Glaurung, since Smaug could breathe both fire and fly.

I think it is safe to assume, that after Morgoth created dragons, they could reproduce on their own as well. That leaves only the question how dragons managed to survive the war with the Valar and how they managed to flee from the Thangorodrim unnoticed. Unless, Morgoth took precautions and had already hidden a few dragons before being attacked by the Valar. It would have been very interesting if Tolkien had taken the time to work out this element further!

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The first dragons Morgoth bred were not fire-breathing, I believe. The other thing is that Dáin died after Eorl did: Scatha the Worm had been dead several decades.

I've enjoyed reading your post, Alcuin, very informative! However, one tiny note, wasn't Glaurung, who I think has been described as 'Father of Dragons', a fire-breathing dragon? Or am I mixing things up?

In context, he might simply have followed the Dwarves to Erebor to prey upon them after Thrór, Thorin’s grandfather, removed his folk back to the Lonely Mountain after his father and brother were killed in their own hall.

Dragons must have been now realised that Dwarves = gold and riches. Is there a record of how many years passed between the establishment of Erebor and the sack of it by Smaug? If there is a longer period between the two, it may be more likely that Smaug was lured by the rumour of the Dwarves' wealth, rather than actually following them to their new abode.

[Valandil]

Hi Alcuin - thanks for joining in.

I disagree with one major supposition of yours. I do not believe that Fram was the father of Leod. I don't find information to support that. If you do, please let me know.

Frumgar led the Eotheod north in 1977, where they occupied what had just before been the eastern half of Angmar - the part on the east side of the Misty Mountains. In my copy of Appendix B, the account says 'Frungor' instead of 'Frumgar', but 'Frumgar' is used in the parallel Appendix A narrative, and I think is used more than once, so I take the 'Frungor' as a typo.

Appendix A does state that Fram was the son of Frumgar - so I take the death of Scatha at most likely a few years either side of 2000. In other words, about 600 years before the cold-drake slew Dain I. It's possible that Fram was not yet leader ('King'? if they considered him such) when he slew the dragon, but I think most likely he was king then, or soon after - because he is the one who deals with the subsequent demands of the Dwarves.

A few other references to dragons:
* Gandalf says in passing of the 7 Dwarf Rings, that some were consumed by dragon-fire. Should be in 'Council of Elrond', but I'm not looking it up right now.
* When the Dwarves visit Bag End, Thorin's account includes the statement that "There were lots of dragons in the North in those days..."
* Gandalf says in the same chapter that he tried to find a Warrior, or even a Hero to deal with the dragon, but that the warriors were all busy fighting each other and there were not many heroes in these parts. This may have all been tongue-in-cheek by Gandalf, and certainly was by JRRT. But it may also present a 'standard' approach to dealing with a dragon.
* Later in the story, the Dwarves seem to have some 'dragon-lore', regarding various ways that dragons have been slain. This is late in 'Inside Information'
* Appendix B, early in the section (middle of first paragraph in opening narrative) on the Third Age: "The Dwarves hid themselves in deep places, guarding their hoards; but when evil began to stir again and dragons reappeared, one by one their ancient treasures were plundered, and they became a wandering people."

For that last, the '...when... dragons reappeared...' is the part of interest. We could even ask, reappeared from when? Is this their first real appearance since the First Age and the fall of Morgoth? Or is it a reappearance after the first fall of Sauron, if they had been active in his time? Is suspect the former - that they had not been widely 'on the scene' in the Second Age.

An interesting follow-up question: Were the Third Age dragons made by Sauron late in the Second Age, before his fall - but they did not mature and 'come out' until the Third?

In any event, it suggests a somewhat large-scale appearance of dragons. Not just one or two - but maybe 6, 10, 12 or more - appearing over a period of time (How many dragons does it take to make a 'lot'? Not as many, I suspect, as it takes of Orcs or Elves or Dwarves). Most may have stayed in the very far north. The southern most lattitude they are recorded as appearing is about the location of Erebor. That doesn't mean they did not go elsewhere, but it's all we've got.

Cold-drakes: yes, I have read the theory that they could have simply not been fire-breathing. Perhaps I was prejudiced by Dungeons and Dragons material, but I envisioned it as a dragon that breathed frost instead of fire. JRRT could have meant either one. Again, to shamelessly give a plug, I'll suggest my fanfic "Visitors Come to Court" - which is, I think, my best yet. It's also nice reading for this time of year.

[Valandil]

Earniel - I took so long writing that, your post wasn't up when I started.

Yes - there is a pretty good record of these events time-wise in Appendix B:

1981 Nain I slain. The Dwarves flee from Moria
1999 Thrain I comes to Erebor and founds a dwarf-kingdom 'under the Mountain'.
2210 Thorin I leaves Erebor, and goes north to the Grey Mountains, where most of the remnants of Durin's Folk are now gathering.
2570 ... About this time, Dragons reappear in the far North and begin to afflict the Dwarves.
2589 Dain I slain by a Dragon. (note: it's the App A account which calls it a 'cold-drake')
2590 Thror returns to Erebor. Gror his brother goes to the Iron Hills.
2770 Smaug the Dragon descends on Erebor. Dale destroyed. Thror escapes with Thrain II and Thorin II.

(and... omitting all the intervening struggles of the Dwarves...)

2941 Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire....

So - Erebor had been established earlier, but abandoned for 660 years. After the Dwarves' return, it was in operation for 180 years before the appearance of Smaug. And Smaug maintained occupancy for 171 years.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

...one tiny note, wasn't Glaurung, who I think has been described as 'Father of Dragons', a fire-breathing dragon? Or am I mixing things up?

I don’t know, Eärniel. I was of the opinion that the cold-drakes came first, then the Urulóki or Foalókë (both for fire-drakes), but in The Silmarillion, Glaurung is called “Father of Dragons�, and he did breathe fire. In “Of the Return of the Noldor�,

Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Urulóki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband’s gates by night.

In The Book of Lost Tales Volume II, “Turambar and the Foalókë�, Tolkien wrote,

Many are the dragons that Melko has loosed upon the world and some are more mighty than others. Now the least mighty – yet were they very great beside the Men of those days – are cold as is the nature of snakes and serpents, and of them a many having wings go with the uttermost noise and speed; but the mightier are hot and very heavy and slow-going, and some belch flame, and fire flickereth beneath their scales, and the lust and greed and cunning evil of these is the greatest of all creatures: and such was the Foalókë whose burning there set all the places of his habitation in waste and desolation.

At the end of “Turambar and the Foalókë�, in Miscellaneous Matters, (vii) Winged Dragons, Christopher Tolkien notes,

At the end of The Silmarillion … Morgoth ‘loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits pf Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen’. The suggestion is that winged dragons were a refinement of Morgoth’s original design (embodied in Glaurung, Father of Dragons who went upon his belly). According to the Tale of Turambar [the material just previously cited], on the other hand, among Melko’s many dragons some were smaller, cold like snakes, and of these many were flying creatures; while others, the mightier, were hot and heavy, fire-dragons, and these were unwinged. As already noted …, there is no suggestion in the tale that Glaurung was the first of his kind.

“As already notedâ€� refers to Lúthien Tinúviel’s lengthening spell that she used to make her hair grow to escape HÃ*rilorn, the tree-house her father made to hold her and keep her from Beren, in which she names the longest things in Middle-earth, including the body of Glaurung.

The ramalóki, or flying dragons, did not appear until the very end of the First Age, when Morgoth used them in the War of Wrath, indicating that the appearance of Ancalagon the Black was a complete surprise. Finally, War of the Jewels, “The Tale of Years�, for text A, years 550-97 (page 346 in the American hardcover),

…after the last words of the original entry the following was added: ‘Ancalagon is cast down by Eärendil and all save two of the Dragons are destroyed.’

So I don’t really know, Eärniel, whether the fire-drakes or the cold-drakes came first. I am of the opinion that “cold-drakes� are easier to develop than “fire-drakes�, and fire-drakes are a development prior to flying dragons; to me, cold-drakes logically come first, but I have no evidence for that.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I disagree with one major supposition of yours. I do not believe that Fram was the father of Leod. I don't find information to support that. …

Frumgar led the Eotheod north in 1977, where they occupied what had just before been the eastern half of Angmar - the part on the east side of the Misty Mountains. …

Appendix A does state that Fram was the son of Frumgar - so I take the death of Scatha at most likely a few years either side of 2000. In other words, about 600 years before the cold-drake slew Dain I. It's possible that Fram was not yet leader ('King'? if they considered him such) when he slew the dragon, but I think most likely he was king then, or soon after - because he is the one who deals with the subsequent demands of the Dwarves.

You are quite correct, Valandil. I was in error.

I’d like to follow on the idea that the Witch-king had just left the north of Middle-earth, his old kingdom of Angmar, where he held sway on both sides of the north of the Misty Mountains, as you know. I wonder if Sauron either directly or through the Witch-king was instrumental in causing the dragons to renew their numbers and activities?

[Valandil]

Yes - that's another interesting thought. And, while Scatha was slain within a few decades of Angmar's fall, it was about 700 years after the Witch King first came north. Plenty of time, and then some, to grow up a dragon, I should think.

[Alcuin]

It is worth considering whether Scatha was a cold-drake or an urulóki (fire-breathing dragon). If he was a cold-drake, that would make killing him much easier; but I think the context is that Scatha was a fire-breathing dragon.

This would also have been about the same time that Durin’s Folk were driven from Moria (1981, when Náin I was killed by Durin’s Bane) and subsequently first founded their kingdom at Erebor (1999 under Thráin I).

The Tale of Years has an entry for the year 2570, “... About this time, Dragons reappear in the far North and begin to afflict the Dwarves,� as Valandil has already noted. But during the last three decades of the twentieth century of the Third Age, several very bad things happened: Arthedain was destroyed, and almost all the northern Dúnedain were slaughtered in the fall of Fornost (1974); the Dwarves were driven out of Khazad-dûm by the balrog (1981); Scatha the Worm was active and about (and slain, which was a good thing); and the Witch-king moved south to Mordor and captured Minas Ithil (2002).

Would Sauron, deprived of Scatha, spent the next several hundred years working to develop a large, flying, fire-breathing dragon? (to wit: Smaug) And we don’t know whether or not Scatha was a flying dragon.

Finally, we should think about what kind of critter a Tolkien dragon actually was. Orcs are creatures that have had their natures so twisted and debased that they seem naturally evil. Carcharoth, the wolf that bit off Beren’s hand, was inhabited by an evil spirit put there by Morgoth. Are dragons natural creatures or unnatural creatures (in Tolkien’s world, anyway): that is, are they naturally genius monsters, or are they inhabited by some fell spirit? If the latter is the case, then raising up a particularly evil dragon like Smaug would be a necromantic act (akin to the wights of the barrow-downs), and right in line with Sauron’s usual modus operandi.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Earniel - I took so long writing that, your post wasn't up when I started.

Yes - there is a pretty good record of these events time-wise in Appendix B:

Thanks, I suspected that much, but since I was supposed to be cleaning earlier, I didn't have time to go and check the books myself.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

So I don’t really know, Eärniel, whether the fire-drakes or the cold-drakes came first. I am of the opinion that “cold-drakes� are easier to develop than “fire-drakes�, and fire-drakes are a development prior to flying dragons; to me, cold-drakes logically come first, but I have no evidence for that.

You make a good case for it. The second quote you posted from 'Of the return of the Noldor':

Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Urulóki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband’s gates by night.

...could be interpreted that the title 'Father of Dragons' could point rather to him being the father of Urulóki, instead of father of alll dragons. Which means the more (assumed) basic form of cold-drakes may well have come first.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I’d like to follow on the idea that the Witch-king had just left the north of Middle-earth, his old kingdom of Angmar, where he held sway on both sides of the north of the Misty Mountains, as you know. I wonder if Sauron either directly or through the Witch-king was instrumental in causing the dragons to renew their numbers and activities?

It's possible that the dragons thrived because the Witch-king's activities kept the Dúnedain busy and out of the dragons' way. And with the war, I imagine the dragons would find plenty to eat.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

It's possible that the dragons thrived because the Witch-king's activities kept the Dúnedain busy and out of the dragons' way. And with the war, I imagine the dragons would find plenty to eat.

That brings up a good point. I have never read that any kind of dragon – urulóki or cold-drake – was used in the siege of Fornost. But Scatha was surely around in 1974, and it is likely that there were others, too. I wonder if the Witch-king availed himself of any of them, if he and Sauron kept them aside for other purposes, or if they had any influence over them at all?

Sauron seems to have envisioned using Smaug to raid Rivendell either alone or in conjunction with orcs from the Misty Mountains, much as Glaurung raided Nargothrond. The import is that without the intervention of Thorin & Co., Smaug would have attacked Rivendell, the balrog might (or might not – he seems to have been acting particularly independently of Sauron) have attacked Lórien in coordination with the attack from Dol Guldur, while Sauron attacked Gondor.

[Vidugavia]

Originally Posted by AndMorgothCame.

I've never heard of dragon reproduction, and I believe all were created by Melkor. . .

I think that Gloin gives us a rather good hint at dragonish reproduction, in this quote from "The quest of Erebor" in Unfinished Tales:

'"What!' cried Gloin. 'One of those simpletons down in the Shire? What use on earth, or under it, could he possibly be? Let him smell as he may, he would never dare to come within smelling distance of the nakedest dragonet new from the shell!'

[AndMorgothCame.]

Wow so much information, and I love reading it, but I believe we are going in circles and further from the point. . . Which I guess is the point of forums and that's a good thing, but. . . it seems there is no early history written about him? It would be interesting to know if he ever met Melkor. It would also be interesting to know when Sauron learned of Smaug's death, and how it truly changed his plans. . . But maybe it's always better left unanswered.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by AndMorgothCame.

it seems there is no early history written about him? It would be interesting to know if he ever met Melkor. It would also be interesting to know when Sauron learned of Smaug's death, and how it truly changed his plans.

As a matter of writing the story, I believe Tolkien had assigned Smaug had another name in the earliest versions of The Hobbit, I cannot find a reference to it in Douglas Anderson’s Annotated Hobbit; in mentioning it this way, I am happily leaving myself open for correction by someone more knowledgeable than I.

As to whether Smaug ever met Morgoth – that is a fascinating question! Welcome to Entmoot, AndMorgothCame.! Are you suggesting that all the dragons had their origins with Morgoth, or simply that Smaug was Morgoth’s instigation and was at least six thousand years old? That, I think, deserves considerable consideration.

Sauron would have learned of the dragon’s demise fairly rapidly, I think. I don’t recall how long it was from the day Bard the Bowman felled Smaug at Esgaroth on the Long Lake until the Battle of Five Armies, but the orcs, who were nobody’s allies but under the influence of Sauron and his servants, found out quickly, presumably by enemy birds or other creatures. The story indicates that the goblins had been communicating, forging, and arming themselves since the death of the Great Goblin, and that they launched their assault from Mount Gundabad, the ancient Dwarven city they had taken at the intersection of the Misty Mountains and the Grey Mountains, over 300 miles in a straight line from Erebor.

Sauron was at Dol Guldur in Mirkwood until sometime after Thorin & Co. entered Mirkwood, when Gandalf left them. I think we can safely assume that Sauron knew all about the goblin’s plans and approved of them. Moreover, Gandalf’s absence was because he was attending a meeting of the White Council, where Saruman agreed to help drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur (Saruman’s motive was to prevent his “rival�, Sauron, from searching Anduin for the Ring). The most natural place for that White Council meeting would have been Lórien, across the river from Dol Guldur. Afterwards, Gandalf naturally followed Thorin & Co. to Thranduil’s kingdom: he was on good terms with the Elves.

Another question you might consider is whether the goblin attack was originally slated for Erebor or for some other target – Rivendell, Lórien, Thranduil, the men of the Vale of Anduin, or Rhovanion (Lake Town and other men along the eastern side of Mirkwood). Once Sauron was displaced from Dol Guldur, whatever immediate plans he had were probably out of position; the death of the dragon might simply have provided his army with a target of opportunity. It is possible that Sauron had been planning to use Smaug to attack Rivendell then – not later, but about the same time Thorin & Co. arrived at Erebor –, and that the orcs (goblins) had been massing as part of an assault on Elrond’s stronghold, which had been a thorn in Sauron’s hide for more than 43 centuries.

In “The Quest for Erebor� in Unfinished Tales, Gandalf told Frodo, Merry, Pippin, Legolas and Gimli that his journey to The Shire was burdened by thoughts that Sauron was about to attack Rivendell.

I knew that Sauron had arisen again and ... was preparing for a great war. ... I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lórien and Rivendell ... was his original plan. ...

You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: “I must find some means of dealing with Smaug. But a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed still more. We must disturb Sauron's plans. ...�

...just as I was nearing Bree I was overtaken by Thorin Oakenshield... To my surprise he spoke to me; and it was at that moment that the tide began to turn.

You should consider that Sauron possessed the palantÃ*r of Orthanc. He could look at what he liked in the daylight, and the body of Smaug was clearly visible in the shallow waters around the ruin of Lake Town for many years.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

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You should consider that Sauron possessed the palantÃ*r of Orthanc. He could look at what he liked in the daylight, and the body of Smaug was clearly visible in the shallow waters around the ruin of Lake Town for many years.

One small correction: Sauron had the palantir of Minas Ithil. It was Saruman who had the one from Orthanc.

But you're right - news of the Dragon's fall spread far and wide very swiftly. Even if Sauron had just retreated into Mordor, he would have found out pretty quickly about Smaug's demise.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

That brings up a good point. I have never read that any kind of dragon – urulóki or cold-drake – was used in the siege of Fornost. But Scatha was surely around in 1974, and it is likely that there were others, too. I wonder if the Witch-king availed himself of any of them, if he and Sauron kept them aside for other purposes, or if they had any influence over them at all?

I would speculate that Sauron didn't have as much to say about dragons the way Morgoth could. Even Morgoth is never quite seen ordering dragons around. He was a bit miffed when Glaurung showed himself prematurely. But once Glaurung was fully grown, he could pretty much go and do what he liked, Morgoth didn't seem to have given him any special orders what to destroy. The result of Glaurung's actions pretty much always ended up to the benefit of Morgoth. I had the idea that dragons were rather fiercely independant creatures.

I always saw Sauron -having been a servant of Morgoth- as not having much authority over Balrogs or dragons alike. I doubt he even could have ordered Smaug to do anything. But I reckon he could have convinced Smaug how it could be beneficial to them both if Smaug could go and wreck Rivendell, and how he could keep any gold he found along the way, maybe Sauron would even send a couple of orcs along to help Smaug carry the loot back to his lair, that sort of thing.

That would mean that the Witch-king would even have less authority to include dragons in his armies. Despite all his power, he had been only merely human after all.

Originally Posted by AndMorgothCame.

It would be interesting to know if he ever met Melkor. It would also be interesting to know when Sauron learned of Smaug's death, and how it truly changed his plans. . . But maybe it's always better left unanswered.

Personally I don't think Smaug is old enough to have met Morgoth. I would assume, if Tolkien had envisioned Smaug to have been a comtempory ofMorgoth, he would have mentioned it somewhere to increase Smaug's credentials. Smaug himself, might even have boasted this connection somewhere in his talk with Bilbo. (I know the Hobbit is written before Tolkien connected the early Silmarillion material with the Hobbit world, but if he could go back and change the scene between Gollum and Bilbo to better reflect the events in LoTR, he might have done the same with Smaug's connections.)

[AndMorgothCame.]

That's right, Alcuin, I remember that passage from Unfinished Tales. Interesting how Gandalf just happened to be approached by the one dwarf who seemed to never open up to anybody or confide with anyone other than a fellow dwarf. Thorin was one smart stunted person.

Even more interesting is how that meeting between dwarf and wizard set off a chain of events that not only led to Smaug's death, but also allowed the death of Moria's Balrog, and ultimately, Sauron's demise. Would Sauron have perished without Bilbo Baggins? I think not.

P.S. Im not sure if I did this the right way, but I am pasting a link to a great painting of the standoff at the Bridge of Khazad-dum: http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/g...hp?image_id=81