The Lord of the Rings Discussion Project: Book III Ch. III - The Uruk-Hai

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Book III Chapter III ‘The Uruk-Hai’



Here we have another chapter that starts with a dream, in this instance, Pippin has been dreaming of himself in dark tunnels, calling Frodo’s name, but finding only Orc faces staring, and grinning, back at him.
This chapter tells the story of Merry & Pippin’s encapture at the hands of the Uruks, we are introduced to the nature of the orcs, and their in-squabbling between the various ‘tribes’; those of the Northerners, Isengarders and those from Mordor. Ultimately, it is the Isengarders who win through, and prove the strongest of the three groups. The chapter tells of the hobbits’ escape, at the hands of an unwitting Grishnákh, and ends with the Riders of Rohan riding over the orcs, and destroying them.
It is quite a fast-paced chapter, taking a lot of time in a relatively short amount of pages.

Speakers in this chapter:
- Uglúk
- Merry
- Pippin
- Grishnákh
- Various other orcs, including a scout

Discussion Points:
1. What is the significance, if any, of Pippin’s dream?
2. Did Grishnákh really have any idea that the ring was borne by a hobbit?
3. And did he really think he would find it on Merry or Pippin?
4. What is the significance of the varying ‘tribes’ of orcs?
5. Why did Grishnákh reveal that a Winged Nâzgul awaited the orcs on the Eastern side of Anduin?
6. Was it a wise decision to plunge into Fangorn?
7. Would the riders have waited till dawn to attack if Mauhúr’s group had not arrived?
8. When about to plunge into Fangorn, the hobbits see Uglúk charging up the slope. Did he see the hobbits, or was he madly running for his life?

[The Gaffer]

This is one of my favourite chapters, particularly as it gives an insight into orc culture.

I don't think Grishnákh knew that the ring was a ring, though he clearly knew the hobbits carried something precious (he recognises the term) which was needed by Lugburz. Similarly, Ugluk seemed to know what was going on, and that Grishnákh might be considered to know more than was good for him.

The rivalry and tensions between the two groups are very interesting, particularly how Grishnákh manages to undermine the stronger Ugluk while keeping his own head. It seems that Sauron uses the personal ambitions of his spies to keep each other in check.

Perhaps another discussion point is the orcs' "first aid". They clearly have some remedies which are similar to those used by elves. Merry gets a taste of some foul stuff which helps him to run for a while; a mockery of miruvor perhaps? Is this a sign that JRRT was, at this stage, still thinking of orcs as being created from corrupted elves rather than, as he later decided, from men?

[Valandil]

Sorry Chrys - missed that you posted this at first. Thought it'd be up the 19th, but this is fine.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Thanks Gaffer, hope you don't mind if I lift your two points


Discussion Points (Cont.)

9a) Merry gets a taste of some foul stuff which helps him to run for a while; a mockery of miruvor perhaps?
9b) Is this a sign that JRRT was, at this stage, still thinking of orcs as being created from corrupted elves rather than, as he later decided, from men?
10) What sense of culture, or lack thereof, can we perceive in the orcs, from this chapter?

yep, val, had to put it up early, as I wasn't sure if I would be able to otherwise, we are painting the living room at my house this week!!

[Nurvingiel]

I really like this chapter too, sorry for my recent lull in participation.

I think the orcs do have a culture - it's just not necessarily one that would lead to a long life. We never do see much of orcs besides them fighting, being rude to each other in entertaining ways, or getting killed by the good guys. Though crude, the orc medecine does work.

I found myself sympathizing with Ugluk in this chapter. I never liked Grishnakh. (Maybe it was the description of the arms. Very creepy.)

I don't think Pippin's dream has any significance other than to show the impact getting captured by orcs would have on him and Merry.

This chapter gives us the first real insight into Pippin's resourcefulness (being clever and brave with the fallen orc's knife, and the rope "bracelets") and Merry's bravery (his hacking some orc arms in the battle, then having to take the orc medicine).

I think plunging into Fangorn was wise - given what they knew. It turns out a lot of the local knowledge of Fangorn was false anyway (it's not evil, it's just well-defended). It was an action born of desperation and fear of the orcs or getting accidentally trampled by the Riders, which led them to being the catalyst for the Ents' action.

Without this, Helm's Deep might have gone a lot worse. Or at least, there would have been a difficult amount of escapees, as opposed to none. Plus, Saruman would have continued to harass Rohan throughout the rest of the War, so maybe even less would have gone to Gondor's aid. It was pretty obvious that every Rider was needed then.

Maybe this urge came from the same place as Frodo's impulse to rush at the Cave Troll and stab it in the foot for "The Shire!", or that caused Sam to turn back at Amon Hen and nearly drown trying to join his invisible master. Hobbits just seem to have this brave instinct deep down that surfaces when it's most needed.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

oops! should have clarified, was their decision to plunge into fangorn wise, given their knowledge at the time?

BTW thanx nrvi

[The Gaffer]

Just another quick observation on this chapter, which Nurv hints at:

If the Riders hadn't attacked the orcs, Saruman would have got hold of the hobbits, and the secret of Frodo's mission would have been found out.

So, the whole quest relies on Eomer's disobedience.

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Is this a sign that JRRT was, at this stage, still thinking of orcs as being created from corrupted elves rather than, as he later decided, from men?

Where did you read that orcs had been created from corrupted men? I am pretty sure that somewhere in LotR it still says corrupted elves (and it says that Saruman bred orcs and men together)

[Nurvingiel]

I too belong to the Orcs from Elves camp.

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

4. What is the significance of the varying ‘tribes’ of orcs?

I think this is one way that we're shown Orcs do have a culture, and there aren't homogeneous. Their differences are partly because they're squabbly orcs, and partly because they come from different areas and have different goals.


And, given Merry and Pippin's knowledge of Fangorn I still think it was wise enough to go in. Not foolish anyway. It's not the best plan ever to get lost in a mysterious forest with no supplies, but they really needed to lose Grishakh, and that was the best way to go about it. Considering their other option of staying in the open and trying to sneak off that way, I think it was a good idea. The Riders of Rohan also have never seen a holbytla before, they might be mistaken for the enemy in the confusion. (I think Merry or Pippin points that out somewhere.)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

it says in the sil that they were possibly bred from corrupted avari, however i beleive there is a reference to them being bred from Men in UT, IIRC, but i am often mistaken although i think it is quite possible that some were bred from avari, and others from men.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

it says in the sil that they were possibly bred from corrupted avari, however i beleive there is a reference to them being bred from Men in UT, IIRC, but i am often mistaken although i think it is quite possible that some were bred from avari, and others from men.

Wasn't it from Myths Transformed? I coulda sworn I read it there.

Orcs from Men camp, btw.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Wasn't it from Myths Transformed? I coulda sworn I read it there.

Orcs from Men camp, btw.

Sorry, Chrys. BoP's right. It's in Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

And did he [Grishnákh] really think he would find it[the Ring] on Merry or Pippin?

When the Hobbits had teased him so much to the point where he takes them with him, Grishnákh mentions something about seaching to the bone. That one line indicated to me that the orc really must have thought Merry or Pippin had the Ring, instead of merely knowing who else held it.

What is the significance of the varying ‘tribes’ of orcs?

Thanks to Olmer's interesting theories about orcs being in league with the Elves of Lothlórien, I've been paying more attention to the bits about the orcs. It was actually quite fun trying to figure out the composition and allegiances of the diverse group of orcs that was travelling to Isengard. I'm not sure that I've figured it out completely but my respect for Tolkien has grown even more that he made an effort to bring so much diversity into this group of orcs. The different sizes, motives, attitudes, speeches even. This is what makes a writer great.

What also caught my attention was, even orcs are often discribed as 'wretched creatures', they themselves don't seem to feel so wretched at all. Okay, the orc's life is a hard one, you have to be careful - or daring- enough to keep your head on your shoulders. But they also seem to have a lot of 'fun' so to speak, even if their humour is somewhat darkish.

Why did Grishnákh reveal that a Winged Nâzgul awaited the orcs on the Eastern side of Anduin?

I think to instill some fear into Uglúk in the hope that the large orc would refrain of going to Isengard.

Was it a wise decision to plunge into Fangorn?

If looked at it afterwards, yes. If they hadn't gone into Fangorn as they did, a lot of important things would never have come to pass. When looked at it on the moment, I suppose they didn't have many other options. The wood was near, offered shelter from prying eyes and might have been a better chance to come across food than in the open field.

Would the riders have waited till dawn to attack if Mauhúr’s group had not arrived?

The memory is a little bit hazy, but didn't they wait until dawn for the full attack? I thought they beat off Mauhúr's orcs and then resumed their watch until the light was better.

When about to plunge into Fangorn, the hobbits see Uglúk charging up the slope. Did he see the hobbits, or was he madly running for his life?

I've been wondering about that too. I assume he didn't see them. Mainly because he wouldn't be expecting them there and because he had other issues on his hand. But also because the Hobbit's grey Elven mantles must have made them very difficult to see.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

One of the best things about this chapter is the last line. Don't have the book handy but it's something like "the smoke rose high to the heavens and was seen by many eyes", giving us a hint of the intrigue to come. It might suggest to Saruman, for example, that the Rohirrim, and therefore Theoden, may have found the Ring.

Indeed, it opens the door for speculation and new events.