Elvish Perception of Time

[Elemmírë]

In another thread, we brushed up against the subject of how Elves perceive the passage of time, especially as compared to how Men perceive it. There seemed to be some differences of opinion regarding this topic.

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Right, Pytt. Perhaps I should clarify exactly what I was nitpicking: Elves would conceive the idea of time differently from humans - immortality or even long life nescessitates a somewhat different outlook than mortality does. But they would not percieve its passage any differently.

This distinction is certainly splitting hairs (even for me ), but it's nescessary to counter the all-too-frequent assumption that elves somehow experience existance more slowly than humans. That is false - elves experience time the same way that humans do (which is a large part of the reason they constantly attempted to halt it in places like Rivendell and Lorien), they simply have a longer adult lifespan and so experience more of it. A 144 year old elf would expereince the same duration that a human would if they lived the same time - there's nothing qualitatively different between the way humans and elves (and Maiar, and Valar, and Rodents) experience the passageof time.

In Fellowship of the Ring, it is said, concerning this topic:

Nay, time does not tarry ever, but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.

Any ideas?

[BeardofPants]

I think it comes down to the differentiation between the perception of time. That is, building upon what shannon said, the passage of time passes as physically the same as the time that mortal men run on, BUT the perception of time is differentiated between the mortal and immortal kindred.

[Wayfarer]

Really, I'd bet anything that Elves experience the same things, juston a longer scale.

Recently I found myself looking back and saying 'Man, 2004 is almost done already? Seems like just yesterday it was just 2003. And the whole Y2K thing seems like it was just a little while ago'. Somehow, I imagine that if I were to live for another thousand years, what's to say I wouldn't look back and say 'Man, it's 3000 already? Seems like it was just 2000 a few days ago.'

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that elves don't even percieve time differently. The difference is in the way they remember past events (having much more history to recall) and the manner in which they anticipate future events (without the sense of urgency that comes from being mortal). Since experience only occurs in the present, and time proceeds equally for all entities, any different perception of time is wholly subjective.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that elves don't even percieve time differently. The difference is in the way they remember past events (having much more history to recall) and the manner in which they anticipate future events (without the sense of urgency that comes from being mortal). Since experience only occurs in the present, and time proceeds equally for all entities, any different perception of time is wholly subjective.

I don't think this argument is logical WF. Let's look at our lifespan as compared to an insect's. Many insects' lifespans are over within the passage of a single season. I cannot believe that one season would appear as long for an insect is it would for us.

This seems a bit like saying that everyone sees the world the same way, no matter how large or small they are. If an amoeba had eyes , it could never perceive the world around it the way we do.

And I would like to see you try to prove that time proceeds equally for all entities.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I don't think that the Elves even considered the passage of time until they met Men and especially when Men died. The Sil says that when Beor died "the Elves saw for the first time the swift waning of the lives of Men and the death of weariness that they knew not in themselves." So, the notice and effects of time came with Men to the Elves maybe.

[ItalianLegolas]

to elves, hundreds, or even thousands of years could be like human days, even though the same amount of time is passing

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

I don't think that the Elves even considered the passage of time until they met Men and especially when Men died. The Sil says that when Beor died "the Elves saw for the first time the swift waning of the lives of Men and the death of weariness that they knew not in themselves." So, the notice and effects of time came with Men to the Elves maybe.

This makes a lot of sense to me. At least more so than the theory that time seems to pass at different rates for different races. With such long lives, the Elves would have no reason, I believe, to mark time as humans do, and it would have little importance to them until they became familiar with races that time did have a large effect upon. And once they noticed the effects of time upon humans, Elves were still removed from these consequences, so I don't believe they would see the passage of time as humans do, even then.

[Attalus]

My take is that the Elves percieve Time just as Men do. As Wayfarer says, immortals just have a different attitude to it. Even humans, as they grow older, see Time differently than children or adolescents do. One of my older patients told me recently that he hadn't even finished breakfast hardly before it was time for lunch. Probably something like that but exponentially different must happen to the Elves.