Approach to Rivendell

[Valandil]

Why does Gandalf seem to have such a hard time finding the way to Rivendell in The Hobbit? Although Boromir later says something in reference to the place being hard to find (in 'Council of Elrond'), Gandalf should have apparently been there many times before.

Also - as they are approaching it, the descriptions just seem so odd to me - of the deep narrow valleys suddenly opening up before their feet. It makes you wonder how they made any progress at all.

And also - the location where they met the trolls seems so much further from Rivendell in The Hobbit than the same place seems to be from Rivendell in LOTR.

Just puzzling - that's all. Maybe they had swung around and were coming from a different direction, maybe Elrond didn't appreciate everybody knowing how to get there, so Gandalf was obliged to use a long way around. But as I re-read closely, it almost seems I'm reading about two different places in the two different accounts.

Hmmm... did Rivendell move?

[AndMorgothCame.]

The Hobbit has always come off as a more commercial (certainly different) writing than any other Tolkien book. Though it is my favorite, it is certainly unlike any other novel he has ever written. I agree with you completely, and I think that he left more open in this book than any other novel. In my opinion, it was more or less that Gandalf hadn't been there for a while, and got temporarily lost in the "majestique" that surrounded Elrond's fortress. Overall, as precise as Tolkien has always been, I think he wrote these descriptions before he wrote the exact geography of the area. Thoughts?

[Wilhelm]

In LOTR it took 2 days to get from the Trollshaws to Rivendell. On October 18th they found the stone trolls and on October 20th Frodo arrives in Rivendell. Much of that journey is by horse, Frodo is wounded and they are in a hurry.

In the Hobbit it's not so clear but, it looks like it took the Dwarves 3 or 4 days to get to Rivendell by foot (vaguely described in the first paragraph of "A Short Rest").

These two time frames seem plausible and comparable for the circumstances.

In LOTR, JRR does not talk about any issues that may occur between the Bruinen and the House of Elrond - Frodo passes out after on the river's shores and wakes up in Rivendell. It is actually this part of the journey where Gandalf and co. have trouble in the hobbit. In "A Short Rest" they cross the river in the morning and arrive at Elrond's house after dusk. Although they do complete this part of the journey in a day, JRR does spend a fair amount of time describing what they are going through and we learn that they are slightly off track (the elves help them get back on the right track around dusk).

It sounds like it's the part of the Journey from the shores of the Bruinen to Elrond's door where it's complicated and people get lost. We never hear about this stretch in LOTR (as Frodo passed out) and I guess we can assume that Glorfindel's horse knows the way better than Gandalf did.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Or you can assume that Male Dwarves are too stubborn to ask for directions.

[Alcuin]

Rivendell was near the Great Eastern Road, the ancient Dwarven route between the Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills. The High Pass was, after the Dimrill Stair, the principal pass over the Misty Mountains. The Dwarves used the road all the time, as did other travelers. If Rivendell had been a town of Men, it would have been a major stopping-place and trading post; it was not. Travelers didn’t know how to find it: it was hidden. How could that be?

I think Elrond and the other Eldar of Rivendell concealed the way to Rivendell. It was probably a difficult place to find anyway; but one way to explain Gandalf’s difficulty in finding the correct path was that Elrond had recently changed whatever methods he was using to hide the way in. In the context of The Lord of the Rings – which had not been written or even conceived when The Hobbit was put on paper – he had every reason to do so, because Estel was ten years old and hidden there. If Gandalf had not been there since the required last change in approach, even he might have difficulty navigating Elrond’s methods.

As for Glorfindel’s horse finding its way back to Rivendell, it is possible that it knew the way, but after the flood at the Ford of Bruinen, it stood beside Frodo, who had fallen off, until Glorfindel, Aragorn, and the other hobbits reached him. We must suppose that Frodo was loaded on the back of Asfaloth and then the company hiked back to Rivendell.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I think Elrond and the other Eldar of Rivendell concealed the way to Rivendell. It was probably a difficult place to find anyway; but one way to explain Gandalf’s difficulty in finding the correct path was that Elrond had recently changed whatever methods he was using to hide the way in.

If you put it that way, it is not unlikely that Elrond used some sort of spell to hide the entrance to Rivendell. Even though it is never actually mentioned in the text that the entrance is magically hidden. Unless the Elves didn't think it was that magical, they had not quite the same definition of magic as humans would.

It is possible Elrond used the spell or a similar spell that appeared to be woven in the grey Lorien cloaks. They too hinder detection.

[Valandil]

Very interesting idea Alcuin!

Nice to see that - even when there's something that didn't totally seem to fit (in my mind, at first), somebody around here can come up with a reasonable explanation for it.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

If you put it that way, it is not unlikely that Elrond used some sort of spell to hide the entrance to Rivendell. … Unless the Elves didn't think it was that magical, they had not quite the same definition of magic as humans would.

It is possible Elrond used the spell or a similar spell that appeared to be woven in the grey Lorien cloaks. They too hinder detection.

I did not say that it was “magic,” but I agree that is what we might call it. In her conversation with Frodo and Sam, Galadriel told Sam,

…this is what your folk would call magic…; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.

I don’t believe it was “magic” (morgul) to the Elves: it was simply how the Elves interacted with the world around them: how they made things, how they altered their environment. If this is what Elrond did, then I agree, it is certainly to denizens of Rivendell like the Elven-cloaks of Lórien: not “magical” to the Elves, but seeming so to the mortals in the Company of the Ring.

On this subject, there is a sense of loss when we read that when Sam admires the Elven rope made of hithlain as he prepares to leave Lórien, the Elves tell him that had they known that he had a deep interest in rope, they could have taught him much, but now his time to learn was lost, and he had to be content with their gift. Much that the Elves knew was lost to Men: and the same may have been true of whatever means Elrond and his householders used to preserve their privacy in the approaches to Rivendell.

There is another issue here: how did Aragorn view such works? Certainly not as most Men would: he grew up in Rivendell as Elrond’s foster-son. He may well have understood them and even seen them for what they were: works of the Eldar; he might even have been able to construct them to some extent himself. An example of this could be his treatment of Frodo’s morgul-wound in the wild, and his comment about treating Black Breath in Minas Tirith: “Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power.” Afterwards he sent for Elladan and Elrohir, and together the three of them treated those under the spell of the Nazgûl and those suffering the wounds and hurts of war: he used they same techniques as they. In this respect, Aragorn returned to the ancient grace of the first Númenóreans, who had lived intermingled with the Elves at the Mouths of Sirion after the ruin of Doriath.

Originally Posted by Valandil

Nice to see that - even when there's something that didn't totally seem to fit (in my mind, at first), somebody around here can come up with a reasonable explanation for it.

It requires a bit of imagination, and it cannot be “proven” with published texts. It does appear to fit the available storyline and tie into The Lord of the Rings an aggravating dangling thread from The Hobbit.

Of course, we are left with two final problems: did Glóin find Rivendell more easily because he had been there before? And if this assertion of unusual difficulty in finding the road to Rivendell is correct, then how did Boromir find it at all?