Elf children?

Silje · 01-10-2003, 11:03 AM

This is something I've never been able to understand. When elves are born, they're small, how long does it take for them to grow up? Thousand years or so I would guess. You never hear of them, somhow I just can't imagine little elves running around in Rivendell. Anyone who knows anything about this?

Gwaimir Windgem · 01-10-2003, 11:19 AM

Yeah, and what about Dwarves and Orcs? I asked this a while ago, and never got an answer.

Dunadan · 01-10-2003, 11:33 AM

Yeah and while we're at it, why aren't there millions of the suckers running around? Or did they have their minds on higher pursuits than procreation for all those millenia?

(There's some stuff about Dwarves' breeding habits in the Appendices, I think. Basically there weren't many females and even then they had beards).

Artanis · 01-10-2003, 12:02 PM

In HoME 10, Morgoth's ring, it says that it takes between 50 and 100 years for an Elf to be full-grown. It is also stated that in the begetting and bearing of a child the mother and father put forth a lot of their strength into the child, and therefore the Elves have few children.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-10-2003, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silje
This is something I've never been able to understand. When elves are born, they're small, how long does it take for them to grow up? Thousand years or so I would guess. You never hear of them, somhow I just can't imagine little elves running around in Rivendell. Anyone who knows anything about this?

From Morgoth's Ring. Volume 10. Laws and Customs of the Eldar. The Histories of Middle-earth Series.

Quote:

The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old, and in the same time they learned to walk and dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless, there was less difference between the two kindreds, Elves and Men in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirits had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them.

This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and structure of these children, judging their age by their skill in words, and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children bagan to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would aftrwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full- grown.

Findegil · 01-10-2003, 12:07 PM

In the same source it ist stated that Elves do not beget children in time of war or when thier is any chance that the parents will be seperated during the first years of the child. Considering the situation in Middle-Earth it is possible that not verry much children were born after lets say 1300 ZZ.

Respectfully
Findegil

Eothain · 01-10-2003, 04:27 PM

Yeah about a thousand years.

Gwaimir Windgem · 01-10-2003, 04:37 PM

They just had a quote that said 50-100.

But does anyone know how long it takes Dwarves and Orcs to mature? I think I read somewhere that Dwarves are greybeards by their twelfth year, but I'm not sure if I did. Has anyone else heard of anything like this?

Wayfarer · 01-10-2003, 05:03 PM

I had never heard that... and I'm not sure I'd trust anyone who made that claim.

Among the dwarves in the hobbit, colored beards were almost the norm rather than the exception.

Silje · 01-10-2003, 05:24 PM

Thanks! Really interesting

I've got to get those HoMe books!

Lady of Rohan · 01-13-2003, 10:33 PM

If orcs where made from elves then wouldn't the orcs be the same age as the elves were when they where mutilated? So unless they captured an unmature elf then the orc that it was turned into would already be matured. But then did the orcs have babies or did they just capture more elves? Oh, now I'm confussing my self!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-13-2003, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lady of Rohan
If orcs where made from elves then wouldn't the orcs be the same age as the elves were when they where mutilated? So unless they captured an unmature elf then the orc that it was turned into would already be matured. But then did the orcs have babies or did they just capture more elves? Oh, now I'm confussing my self!

Ok, again, Tolkien changed his mind several times about several things. His original idea was that Orcs came from Elves, but that changed and they ended up being spawn from Men. The final Tolkien concept was that Orcs came from Men I believe.

Artanis · 01-14-2003, 05:26 AM

It is said that Orcs bred (is it bred or breeded? Or something else?) in the same manner as did Elves and Men.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-14-2003, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
It is said that Orcs bred (is it bred or breeded? Or something else?) in the same manner as did Elves and Men.

Yes Artanis they bred in the same manner as Elves and Men. I shouldn't have used the word "spawn" At the time I posted, I was reading something in Foster's Guide and he used that word. Sorry.

Gilraen · 01-14-2003, 02:45 PM

Okay, now I am confused. I thought I remembered reading in the Silmarillion that orcs were created from elves caught by Melkor (Morgoth). Which reference has Tolkien's discussion that they were from men or discusses that he changes his mind? Someone recently asked me about the genesis of orcs and I'd better be sure I didn't tell them something completely wrong. Better yet, I can tell them where they can look it up!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-14-2003, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gilraen
Okay, now I am confused. I thought I remembered reading in the Silmarillion that orcs were created from elves caught by Melkor (Morgoth). Which reference has Tolkien's discussion that they were from men or discusses that he changes his mind? Someone recently asked me about the genesis of orcs and I'd better be sure I didn't tell them something completely wrong. Better yet, I can tell them where they can look it up!

Ok, despite what the Silmarillion says, the information is in Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring, volume 10, The HoMe series.

Elf Girl · 01-14-2003, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gilraen
Okay, now I am confused. I thought I remembered reading in the Silmarillion that orcs were created from elves caught by Melkor (Morgoth). Which reference has Tolkien's discussion that they were from men or discusses that he changes his mind? Someone recently asked me about the genesis of orcs and I'd better be sure I didn't tell them something completely wrong. Better yet, I can tell them where they can look it up!

I believe that only the first orcs were corrupted (from elves or men), and then they bred to create the whole race.

I am probably wrong however...

Gilraen · 01-14-2003, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Ok, despite what the Silmarillion says, the information is in Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring, volume 10, The HoMe series.

Thanks very much for the reference. Looks like I will have to start on the HoME series when I finish "Unfinished Tales!"

Insidious Rex · 01-15-2003, 02:46 PM

And back to the elf thing.......

If elves dont age technically (other then growing up slowly) when do they reach their final stage of maturity and why is it some look older then others? I mean if Elrond and Arwen are both thousands of years old shouldnt they look about the same age now? Why does Arwen still look so much younger then Elrond?

Hi this is my daughter Arwen. Shes only 2000.....

**Nurvingiel** · 01-15-2003, 03:07 PM

...And I'm a ripe old 5000...

Some people tend to look older than others, given their physical characteristics. Maybe this applies to elves. Except, we don't really know what any of the elves look like. The movie doesn't count, because Elrond only looks older than Arwen because Hugo Weaving is older than Liv Tyler.

01-10-2003, 11:03 AM	#1
Silje Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 22	Elf children? This is something I've never been able to understand. When elves are born, they're small, how long does it take for them to grow up? Thousand years or so I would guess. You never hear of them, somhow I just can't imagine little elves running around in Rivendell. Anyone who knows anything about this?

01-10-2003, 11:19 AM	#2
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Yeah, and what about Dwarves and Orcs? I asked this a while ago, and never got an answer. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

01-10-2003, 12:02 PM	#4
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	In HoME 10, Morgoth's ring, it says that it takes between 50 and 100 years for an Elf to be full-grown. It is also stated that in the begetting and bearing of a child the mother and father put forth a lot of their strength into the child, and therefore the Elves have few children. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

01-10-2003, 04:27 PM	#7
Eothain Enting Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 73	LOTR Yeah about a thousand years. __________________ Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing? Where is the hand on the harpsting, and the red fire glowing? Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing? They have past like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow; The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow. Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning, or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning? Frodo lives

01-10-2003, 04:37 PM	#8
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	They just had a quote that said 50-100. But does anyone know how long it takes Dwarves and Orcs to mature? I think I read somewhere that Dwarves are greybeards by their twelfth year, but I'm not sure if I did. Has anyone else heard of anything like this? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

01-10-2003, 11:33 AM	#3
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	Yeah and while we're at it, why aren't there millions of the suckers running around? Or did they have their minds on higher pursuits than procreation for all those millenia? (There's some stuff about Dwarves' breeding habits in the Appendices, I think. Basically there weren't many females and even then they had beards).

01-10-2003, 12:07 PM	#6
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	In the same source it ist stated that Elves do not beget children in time of war or when thier is any chance that the parents will be seperated during the first years of the child. Considering the situation in Middle-Earth it is possible that not verry much children were born after lets say 1300 ZZ. Respectfully Findegil

01-10-2003, 05:03 PM	#9
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I had never heard that... and I'm not sure I'd trust anyone who made that claim. Among the dwarves in the hobbit, colored beards were almost the norm rather than the exception. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-10-2003, 05:24 PM	#10
Silje Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 22	Thanks! Really interesting I've got to get those HoMe books!

01-13-2003, 10:33 PM	#11
Lady of Rohan Doughy Elf Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 1,006	If orcs where made from elves then wouldn't the orcs be the same age as the elves were when they where mutilated? So unless they captured an unmature elf then the orc that it was turned into would already be matured. But then did the orcs have babies or did they just capture more elves? Oh, now I'm confussing my self!

01-14-2003, 05:26 AM	#13
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	It is said that Orcs bred (is it bred or breeded? Or something else?) in the same manner as did Elves and Men. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

01-14-2003, 02:45 PM	#15
Gilraen Sapling Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 9	Okay, now I am confused. I thought I remembered reading in the Silmarillion that orcs were created from elves caught by Melkor (Morgoth). Which reference has Tolkien's discussion that they were from men or discusses that he changes his mind? Someone recently asked me about the genesis of orcs and I'd better be sure I didn't tell them something completely wrong. Better yet, I can tell them where they can look it up!

01-15-2003, 02:46 PM	#19
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	And back to the elf thing....... If elves dont age technically (other then growing up slowly) when do they reach their final stage of maturity and why is it some look older then others? I mean if Elrond and Arwen are both thousands of years old shouldnt they look about the same age now? Why does Arwen still look so much younger then Elrond? Hi this is my daughter Arwen. Shes only 2000..... __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

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