anarcho-capitalism in ME

[Finglas]

Seems strange that this thread hasn't already been started. Maybe it has and I just overlooked it. If so, let me know.

Anyways, as a libertarian, I've always admired Tolkien's Hobbit societies. The Shire and Bree seem to be prime examples of the free market in its purest form, true laissez-faire capitalism. Without any governmental entanglements, private investment is perfectly able to supply all the needs of these jovial, yet simple people. Seeing their contentment and their long tradition of liberty, then, I have worried about what the Fourth Age might have in store for Hobbits and their way of life. Will the return of the king mean a return of taxes? Of regulations? Of government coercion? Surely, if indeed Sauron's spirit yet lives on even after his final fall, this is the form it would take.

Perhaps much of what we say concerning the government of Middle-Earth is mere speculation, but if anyone has any insight into it based in the Tolkien corpus (including his letters, a copy of which I really must buy) I would love to learn more.

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Finglas
Seems strange that this thread hasn't already been started. Maybe it has and I just overlooked it. If so, let me know.

Anyways, as a libertarian, I've always admired Tolkien's Hobbit societies. The Shire and Bree seem to be prime examples of the free market in its purest form, true laissez-faire capitalism. Without any governmental entanglements, private investment is perfectly able to supply all the needs of these jovial, yet simple people. Seeing their contentment and their long tradition of liberty, then, I have worried about what the Fourth Age might have in store for Hobbits and their way of life. Will the return of the king mean a return of taxes? Of regulations? Of government coercion? Surely, if indeed Sauron's spirit yet lives on even after his final fall, this is the form it would take.

Perhaps much of what we say concerning the government of Middle-Earth is mere speculation, but if anyone has any insight into it based in the Tolkien corpus (including his letters, a copy of which I really must buy) I would love to learn more.

Interesting thought that I never gave much thought concerning ME. (A detail that falls to the side compared to everything else happening. )

I like your sig. quote

If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
-Pink Floyd

[Valandil]

Interesting thesis, Finglas. I doubt that the restoration of the monarchy would affect the Shire much - at least not for a long time. Remember, when the Shire was first established, as a 'land-grant' from Arthedain, the only requirements were that the inhabitants maintain the roads and bridges - and speed the King's messengers. Hardly onorous or intrusive government requirements!

I have wondered some about the economies of Middle Earth - especially in relation to governing bodies. In Gondor, I imagine there may have been some taxation - they had need for large standing armies and navies - and had large capital development projects ('Wait... you want SEVEN rings around that hill? DELVED into the mountain???'). In Arnor, I wonder if economies were more like those of the Shire - sort of 'household' based - with the king's 'household' being by far the largest - and including; soldiers, farmers, craftsmen, scribes, musicians and artists - whatever else was necessary for maintaining the royal 'household'. The northern areas were perhaps mostly agrarian societies... which may have made it easier to pull off a 'tax-less' condition (or the taxation may have been actual goods, rather than coin). At first, they had less need for large armies - and don't seem to have done the same scale of building projects. The first part of that (armies!) may have changed when Arnor was divided and Angmar raised its head.

In some ways, it could have been almost a 'money-less' society... though we do see the use of money in the Shire and Bree. In fact, once you have an inn, you just about have to have money. Then you have to have someone coining it, someone mining the material, etc. That's usually a governing body. Then they can use their coins to make purchases - and in return, tax some of that back in order to purchase more. Maybe this was all somewhat limited in the north (Arnor), but more extensive in the south (Gondor).

Of course, there were earlier efforts at coining... but a lot of that stuff ended up in treasuries of dragons and trolls.

I also wonder if, perhaps, precious metals could have been provided by the dwarves of Moria, in exchange for agricultural products of Arnor and Gondor. Arthedain and Moria BOTH lasted until about the same time (1974 as opposed to 1981 - I think)

So much to think about...

[Valandil]

PS Finglas... remember also that the people of Bree and the Shire WERE being protected, without paying taxes to support their 'military protection'...

[Dúnedain]

Well remember the Shire did have Mayors, so I am sure in some way shape or form they had some kind of government in place, maybe this is the tie into to what Val was saying about coining and whatnot.

Also, I wouldn't fear for any changes in the 4th age, especially early on. I say this because Aragorn made it illegal for any Man to enter the shire, and it is noted that when Aragorn visited he would only come to the Brandywine Bridge. Aragorn also ruled for 120 years into the 4th age. Then his son Eldarion became King. The thing to remember with Eldarion is he is of the bloodline renewed and grew up under Arwen and Aragorn, thus I think it's pretty safe to say his rule would go well in line with what his parents taught him over the years. We don't know much of his rule or the time thereafter. Heck, we don't know much about Aragorn's rule either, but I think it is definitely safe to say that there would not have been much to worry about in respect to the shire early in the 4th age with the King's...

[Finglas]

Originally posted by Valandil
In Arnor, I wonder if economies were more like those of the Shire - sort of 'household' based - with the king's 'household' being by far the largest - and including; soldiers, farmers, craftsmen, scribes, musicians and artists - whatever else was necessary for maintaining the royal 'household'.

I don't pretend to be an expert on our own Medieval politics, but this seems to line up with what I've heard. I imagine that if Tolkien had developed any detailed ideas about the govt of ME he would have used our own history as a model.

The government was essentially owned and opperated by the rulers. The subjects, though they could hardly be thought of as choosing to leave the protection their lords, were subjects voluntarily.

Good ideas Val, but why wouldn't this have been the case in Gondor? They had more expensive projects, but then, the Gondorian rulers would have been wealthier to begin with, no? Thoughts on this?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Finglas
Good ideas Val, but why wouldn't this have been the case in Gondor? They had more expensive projects, but then, the Gondorian rulers would have been wealthier to begin with, no? Thoughts on this?

Well... I guess it's POSSIBLE. Heck, in a fictional setting, ANYTHING is possible, right! Again though, looking at history as we know it, I think of Gondor's building projects and standing military units as comparable to those of ancient Egypt or ancient Rome. Because of differing needs and levels of ambition, I think they were far greater than Arnor's. I also think you'd quickly get to the end of even a king's personal resources... and have to share the load among society. And in fact, these things could have become objects of national unity... symbols of strength and pride.

Fun to speculate... and there's certainly no 'right answer' since it's all fictitious. I guess we just make it more believable and realistic to ourselves by trying to solve whichever problems are of personal interest to us, be they social, historical, economic, political, etc.

[Finglas]

Fun indeed! I wonder if I should consider a career in economics? (imagining myself 30lbs. heavier with bow tie and suspenders)

the economies of ME opperated on a set of standards: gold silver, etc. Thus, the supply of money being limited, it would have been prone to deflation as the demand for capital projects increased. Since the king presumably would have had a significant controling interest in the currency, i.e. he's filthy rich, his own buying power would have had the potential to skyrocket, especially if he were frugal and decided to save for a few decades.

The need to tax would only come as the result of inflation, a debasing of the currency. In a standard based economy, inflation, at least sustained inflation, is next to impossible. Look at our own (American) economy before we abandoned the gold standard.

[Valandil]

You're about 18, right? Try 60 pounds heavier!

I'm not an economist... but think there are some factors to consider as far as what would be inflationary/deflationary in ancient Middle Earth economies.

For one, there's the basic return on work done. An economy of this type would be greatly affected by how fertile the soil was - and how efficiently it was managed. Other things beside agriculture as well... the Numenorean folk were pretty resourceful - I expect they'd get a good return on about any project they put their minds to. This gives a tendency toward economic growth.

As far as the gold/silver - whatever is the standard for trade... there could be a gradual influx of this - as more material is mined and coined through the years. If the economy was wisely managed, the flow of this could be controlled, such that the increase covered the growth of the economy as a whole - as well as losses... otherwise you would have some inflation or deflation.

The building projects were mostly long-term. I imagine they mostly took decades - maybe even 100 years or more for some of the larger enterprises. This would decrease any economic effects by spreading them out over time.

Just a few more thoughts from here... please keep adding yours. Anyone else wanna kick in?

[Finglas]

Originally posted by Valandil
You're about 18, right? Try 60 pounds heavier!

Egad! Reminds me of Gloin's description of Bombur in FotR. "It takes six young dwarves to lift him from his couch to his chair at table." Gruesome.

All good points, though I hope the first won't be realized. I thought this one was particularly good.

As far as the gold/silver - whatever is the standard for trade... there could be a gradual influx of this - as more material is mined through the years. If the economy was wisely managed, the flow of this could be controlled, such that the increase covered the growth of the economy as a whole - as well as the losses... otherwise, you would have some inflation/deflation.

To me it seems that the key question is how the economy was "managed." If it was managed by the market, then any increase from mining would have been inconsequential. The demand for capital would not change because of it. People would then be inclined to save, effectively removing the new money from circulation and dampening the initial inflation.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Finglas
Egad! Reminds me of Gloin's description of Bombur in FotR. "It takes six young dwarves to lift him from his couch to his chair at table." Gruesome.

All good points, though I hope the first won't be realized.

That was all just personal experience! Don't worry though - doesn't take six dwarves yet. I was very skinny for the longest time and could never gain weight. In mid-20's I put on 15 lbs in one semester doing weight training on nautilus machines... all downhill after that, but very slowly. 2 or 3 pounds every year, and it just creeps up, up, up.

Anyway, for the other stuff, I'm not an economist, and you'll soon surpass me (no - not THAT way!)... and maybe as an economist, you WILL only gain 30.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Finglas
Fun indeed! I wonder if I should consider a career in economics? (imagining myself 30lbs. heavier with bow tie and suspenders)

the economies of ME opperated on a set of standards: gold silver, etc. Thus, the supply of money being limited, it would have been prone to deflation as the demand for capital projects increased. Since the king presumably would have had a significant controling interest in the currency, i.e. he's filthy rich, his own buying power would have had the potential to skyrocket, especially if he were frugal and decided to save for a few decades.

The need to tax would only come as the result of inflation, a debasing of the currency. In a standard based economy, inflation, at least sustained inflation, is next to impossible. Look at our own (American) economy before we abandoned the gold standard.

If you want to study economics, you could start by studying economic history:

Price Revolution:

Used generally to describe a series of economic events from the second half of the 15th century to the first half of the 17th, the Price Revolution refers most specifically to the high rate of inflation that characterized the period across Western Europe, with prices on average rising perhaps sixfold over 150 years.

As early as the 16th century, it was thought that this high inflation was caused by the large influx of gold and silver from the New World, especially the silver of Peru which began to be mined in large quantities from 1545. According to this theory, there was simply too much money for the amount of available goods.

In reality, the start of the rise in prices predated the large-scale influx of bullion from across the Atlantic, reflecting in part a quintupling of silver production in central Europe in 1460-1530: though this output fell by two-thirds by the 1610s, it was significant in fuelling the early stages of inflation and undermining a price regime in place since the previous upsurge in silver production in 1170-1320.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_revolution

Any increase in the supply of money will cause inflation: opening new mines in Mordor, increased gold supplies from Far Harad, Dwarves returning to Moria, or Gimli finding new sources in the Glittering Caves.

Of course, standards- based economies are free from the threat of hyper -inflation.

Anyways, as a libertarian, I've always admired Tolkien's Hobbit societies. The Shire and Bree seem to be prime examples of the free market in its purest form, true laissez-faire capitalism. Without any governmental entanglements, private investment is perfectly able to supply all the needs of these jovial, yet simple people.

That's why libertarians love fantasy

[Valandil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
That's why libertarians love fantasy

Don't we all though... and do you just say that because he thinks he's only going to gain 30 pounds?

Actually though, the source you quote seems to indicate that the influx of gold did not cause the inflation of that time - doesn't it?

Back to Middle Earth though... I imagine they had a lot of economic recovery to do - after the losses and damage of war, as well as the big war effort...

[GrayMouser]

Influx of silver, actually, and yes it did.

This was one of the major arguments in economic history. The original assumption was that the flow of silver (gold to a lesser extent) from the New World was the main cause of the Great Price Rise.

It was then pointed out that the start of the inflation preceded that, and therefore must have other causes.

Further investigation showed that the opening of new silver mines in Germany was the impetus for the earlier round of price increases.

One of the main mines was the Joachimsthal (thal meaning valley); such that the name for a piece of money became known as a "thaler", eventually a dollar.


No, libertarians love fantasy because (like communists) it's the only place their ideas work

As for the Gondorian economy, since they didn't use slave labour and the cash economy wasn't that well developed, all those huge building projects were probably carried out by corvee labour; i.e. work carried out by the peasants in lieu of taxes, just like the pyramids, the Great Wall of China, or the medieval cathedrals.

How "voluntary" that was is a matter of debate.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Influx of silver, actually.

Oh... well, the source actually says both - I zeroed in on the gold. Was the silver in greater quantity?

No, libertarians love fantasy because (like communists) it's the only place their ideas work

Ah - c'mon... I was tryin' to go easy on 'im... he's still a youngster!

As for the Gondorian economy, since they didn't use slave labour and the cash economy wasn't that well developed, all those huge building projects were probably carried out by corvee labour; i.e. work carried out by the peasants in lieu of taxes, just like the pyramids, the Great Wall of China, or the medieval cathedrals.

How "voluntary" that was is a matter of debate.

I always like to hope that the Kings of Gondor and Arnor were 'good guys', but *sigh*... JRRT tells us on a number of occasions that these were 'men' through-and-through - and subject to the same vices as other men throughout time. So, we can only hope (in our fictitious little fantasy world ) that these peasants were at least well compensated for their work. Also - with the Numenorean lifespans, the projects could have been commeasurately longer (no need to hurry up and finish the pyramid in 25 years before the pharoah dies!) - so maybe a small percentage of the population was actually involved - and perhaps mostly skilled artisans who had aspired to and trained for such work (as long as we're talking about a fantasy world... why not? )

[Thorin II]

My first thought would've been Valandil's point: Bree and the Shire were benefiting from free protection by the Rangers. They would probably need to start paying for that (although the protection would be less of an effort in a Sauron-free world).

In addition, I have to assume people in the Shire and Bree were already paying taxes. They did have Shirrifs, mayors, and other government bodies. I suspect their situation would've stayed pretty much the same after Aragorn took the throne. If nothing else, I can't imagine Aragorn demanding a lot of cash after Hobbits saved the world...