12-10-2003, 08:36 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
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Alternate history
Assume that Ugluk and company captured Frodo and Sam, and took them to Isengard. Saruman takes the Ring.
What happens next? Presumably Sauron becomes aware of this relatively quickly, but what does he do? The Nazgul are instantly suspect, and likely Sauron would attempt to do something rather drastic to them. Can Sauron bypass Gondor and Rohan to assault Isengard? And what action can the Free peoples take? Thoughts?
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12-10-2003, 09:28 PM | #2 |
Hobbit
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Re: Alternate history
Bacchus - did you get this idea from the questions I posed on the Savvy Orc thread? I'll have to think about this and get back. I did think they were good questions.
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12-10-2003, 09:46 PM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Interesting speculation.
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12-10-2003, 10:41 PM | #4 | |
Elven Warrior
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Re: Re: Alternate history
Quote:
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12-10-2003, 10:47 PM | #5 | |
Hobbit
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Quote:
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12-11-2003, 04:00 AM | #6 |
Elven Warrior
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Good what-if!
Hmm... have to think this one over...
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12-11-2003, 04:46 AM | #7 |
Elf Lord
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There are clues in the text: in TTT, after the Palantir episode, Gandalf states that Saruman may have power within Orthanc to defy all of the Nazgul together, even without the Ring. Hence one of the things Sauron feared most was just this scenario.
I don't think we know enough about the power of the Ring to speculate much on what would've happened next. It would be fairly certain that Rohan and Gondor would have been crushed between the two, and probably Isengard would eventually have been besieged by Mordor. |
12-11-2003, 02:45 PM | #8 |
Elf Lord
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One possible scenario could be quite complicated. It's not impossible to envision a fairly complete Muster of Rohan allied with the ents destroying Saruman's army before he could wield the Ring effectively. recall that at The Last Debate Gandalf observes that "...we could not learn to wield the full power all in a day" (presumably including himself in those who would need time to use the Ring effectively).
Presumably Minas Tirith would fall and perhaps the Gondorites would resort to guerrilla warfare (there were escape routes through the White Mountains). You would have Saruman in Orthanc but without an army, Sauron with a large army threatening to besiege it, a mobile Rohirrim able to skirmish for some time, guerrilla warfare in South Gondor and the White Mountains, perhaps a diversionary attack by Lorien..... Ah, how about a surprise landing by Gandalf and Aragorn on top of Orthanc using the Great Eagles (sort of like Otto Skorzeny rescuing Mussolini near the end of World War II)? Or the ents finding a subterranean way into Orthanc? They'd have hobbits and dwarves with tunneling knowledge.
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12-11-2003, 03:19 PM | #9 |
Elven Warrior
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hmm, I think there are some potential problems with that. The delivery of Frodo and Sam to Orthanc implies that no hobbits arrive in Fangorn. Now perhaps Gandalf can serve the purpose of Merry and Pippin in rousing the Ents, but then who persuades Theoden to attack Saruman? I suspect that a disorganized Rohan falls, although bands of guerrila troops might survive under Eomer and Erkenbrand.
As for Gondor, recall that Sauron's premature attack was precipitated by Aragorn and the Palantir. Sauron now must abandon his planned conquest of Gondor and deal with Saruman before he can master the Ring. I think he attempts to use a blocking force to prevent Gondorian sorties into his supply lines, and strikes across Rohan towards Isengard.
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12-11-2003, 04:06 PM | #10 | |
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Quote:
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12-11-2003, 04:14 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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Originally posted by Attalus
Théoden, still under Grima's spell, would have probably withdrawn to Helm's Deep and let them pass _____________________________________ But in that scenario wouldn't Saruman seek a real alliance with Rohan against Saruman's armies, using Wormtongue's influence? If so, a combined force of the Rohirrim and Saruman's army, especially on open grassland, would be a potent force to oppose Sauron (if they could get along), especially with an unoccupied Gondor behind Sauron. And, on a different point, couldn't Gandalf, riding Shadowfax, be instrumental both in rousing Theoden and convincing the ents to attack?
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12-11-2003, 04:33 PM | #12 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i wonder if Saruman would still be somewhat of a pawn of Sauron's even if he had gotten possession of the ring... i always saw the ring as an extension of Sauron... not just some object of power
i don't know if Sauron was actually as afraid of someone else trying to use the ring as some might think... while he would have preferred to have it himself i think someone else trying to use it against him might be an acceptable alternative, since, much like what happened to the Nazgul, they would eventually come under his power i'd envision something a little more underhanded... Sauron submitting for the moment to Saruman, followed by a two prong attack on Gondor while the Rohirrim hid in the hills... then at the victory party in Barad-dur Sauron would make his move and take back what was rightfully his |
12-11-2003, 04:54 PM | #13 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again. |
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12-11-2003, 04:58 PM | #14 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
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Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again. |
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12-11-2003, 05:12 PM | #15 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Oh... Ruin, Doom, Disaster, Despair!
Most of our heroes would probably be killed, the Shire would be completely enslaved and despoiled. Saruman probably WOULD get major elements of Rohan to join his Dunlendings and orcs... and maybe Gondor as well. Great war and destruction would have raged. The remaining high elves in Lindon, Imladris and Lorien would have departed into the West. Gandalf would plead with potential allies to no avail. In the end, it's hard to say whether Sauron or Saruman would have won... but it would have hardly mattered to anyone else left alive, as their fate would have been much the same. What pockets held out in Erebor or along upper Anduin would have soon been crushed. A New World Order would take hold... |
12-11-2003, 07:03 PM | #16 |
Sapling
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I'm inclined to agree with Valandil about the final outcome. Given how massive Sauron's army is, I think he would simply bypass Gondor, cross Rohan and besiege Orthanc. While he might not be able to get in, the end result would probably be Saruman holed up with the Ring and without an army. I assume even Saruman eventually needs food.
I think it's possible for Saruman to gain control of the Ring, but still be influenced by Sauron via the Palantir. One might see a Denethor-like scenario, where Sarumon's mind is eventually overthrown by the visions he is fed. Even if it takes Sauron some time to get the Ring out of a sealed Orthanc, he will be more than capable of taking on Gondor and Rohan. As we know, the only hope the alliance had was to delay him long enough for the Ring to be destroyed. Take away that hope, and the West is doomed. Unless, of course, a new quest is formed, to find a way into Orthanc and take the Ring once more toward Mordor.... Silmarien |
12-11-2003, 07:16 PM | #17 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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But if Denethor might have been inclined to use The Ring against Sauron himself, if given a chance - don't you think he might have joined Gondor's forces with Orthanc's? To him, Sauron was THE enemy, and to stand in opposition to him was everything. With all his study of the rings of power, perhaps Saruman could have gained skill with The One quite quickly... and even swayed some of Sauron's army to come over to him. Some elements of Rohan may have been dragged along - either due to Grima's influence over Theoden, or loyalty to Gondor (EDIT: or Saruman's 'ringly' influence). I can see Saruman potentially being the one to win out over Sauron in such a circumstance. But even if he won, he would have enslaved all his allies - and their lot would have been no better.
I'm not sure if Saruman could have controlled the Nazgul... didn't Sauron hold their rings? Last edited by Valandil : 12-11-2003 at 07:41 PM. |
12-11-2003, 07:41 PM | #18 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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On maturer reflection, I think that as long as Sauron held the Nine, he would always have control over the Nine. As for Saruman, consider: the Ruling Ring was meant to have dominion over the other rings. The Nine did not wear their rings, so how could Saruman interfere with them, save through coercive sorcery? Another point: Could Saruman command Sauron himself, through the Nine and those of the Seven that he held?
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12-11-2003, 07:46 PM | #19 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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It may indeed have been perilous for Sauron to touch them (the 9 and remnants of the 7) again, once he was aware that Saruman held The One.
I guess whichever heroes of the fellowship who survived the orc attack near Amon Hen (presumably Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli - maybe a hobbit or two) would have been reduced to bystanders as the remaining events played themselves out. They would have considered it folly to join in with Saruman. Maybe they'd all head up to Thrainduil's kingdom (or each to his own) and dig in for an ill-fated 'last stand'... |
12-11-2003, 07:48 PM | #20 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
Gandalf indicates that, even without the Ring, Saruman might be able to capture a Nazgul. With the Ring, I think it is quite plausible that he could suborn them. Sauron's logical countermove is to destroy the Nine rings (and the Nazgul with them).
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