Elves - Aman or Middle Earth?

[Durin1]

A point occurred to me as to the wisdom of the Valar's decison to bring the Elves (newly awakened at Cuivienen) to Aman.

We are told that the Valar held a great debate as to what to do with the Elves in the wake of the power of Morgoth still being strong in ME. We are also told that Ulmo was the leader of those who believed that they should be left to their own devises to enrich ME in their own way, according to their abilities.

It seems conceivable to me that the Elves would have faired well enough (as in the case of the Sindar) if they had not travelled to Aman. Granted they would have not gained so much of their power and knowledge if they had not beheld the light of the 2 trees, but we know what happened when they did.

I am of the opinion that Ulmo (being one of the most powerful of the Valar) knew what he was on about when he suggested they should stay in ME. I have to agree with him.

Also, there would have been less of a caste system developing as it did with the Eldar and Avari/Nandor, or a superiority complex (as the way I see it), which further led to strife.

Any thoughts/opinions?

[Sween]

i think in many ways the Valar could of got it wrong. They did not really have to bring them to Aman to teach them they could of doe this in middle earth. I think Ulmo whom of all the valar still and will forever have a great role in the affrairs of Middle Earth and felt the valar Abandoned it far to lightly!

But if they had just left them in Middle Earth things would of been diffrent and probably not all good diffrences

[Lefty Scaevola]

Rather than rejecting Eru's desgins for the Children by isolating themselves and the Eldar in Aman and and abandoning the rest of the Children to Melkor's remaining servants in ME, the Valar should have done their duty in governing and healing ME and the Children. The Valar greatly failed in their fiduciary duties. There is no way the glory of the struggles or tales that ensued was worth the enormous suffering inflicted on the vast majority, nearly the entirety, of the Children because of their trepidation, indolence, and failure.

[Durin1]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Rather than rejecting Eru's desgins for the Children by isolating themselves and the Eldar in Aman and and abandoning the rest of the Children to Melkor's remaining servants in ME, the Valar should have done their duty in governing and healing ME and the Children. The Valar greatly failed in their fiduciary duties. There is no way the glory of the struggles or tales that ensued was worth the enormous suffering inflicted on the vast majority, nearly the entirety, of the Children because of their trepidation, indolence, and failure.

I definitely agree! It does seem strange to me that the Elves couldn't really decide for themselves as to their fate. When Orome sent three "messengers" to Aman, there would have been little doubt that they would not get enamoured by the light and beaty that they beheld there.

They basically dictated the lives of their own people by decidind that they should make the "great journey".

[Attalus]

There does seem something rather creepy about how the Valar were enamoured of the beauty of the Eldar and wanted to keep them around, even against their own will. No wonder that such high-spirited Noldor as Galadriel were moved to revolt to the extent of escaping to see what Middle-Earth was like.

[Elenna Alaniel]

I think it is good that at least some elvs have gone if Valinor couse if thay hadn't they wouldn't be so wise and powerfull.Valars wouldn't be able to teach them all things thay have in Middle-Earth becouse their home has been in Valinor and they couldn't moove to ME just like that.Plus they had the light of the Trees in Valinor and when Olwe,Elwe and Finwe have seen it they wanted to go back,and they wanted their people to live there.Valars have never kept elvs in Valinor against their will.When they have decided to leave no one have stoped them.They haven't been banned becouse they have left but becouse they killed many of their kinde

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Elenna Alaniel
Plus they had the light of the Trees in Valinor and when Olwe,Elwe and Finwe have seen it they wanted to go back,and they wanted their people to live there.Valars have never kept elvs in Valinor against their will.When they have decided to leave no one have stoped them.They haven't been banned becouse they have left but becouse they killed many of their kinde

Two things: Elwe Singollo wanted to stay in Middle-Earth with his wife, Melian the Maia; they ruled the Kingdom of Doriath. And, many of the Noldor who had no part in the Kinslaying were put under the Ban of the Valar; most prominently, Galadriel.

[Sister Golden Hair]

And, many of the Noldor who had no part in the Kinslaying were put under the Ban of the Valar; most prominently, Galadriel.

And that was because, eventhough they were not hindered from leaving Valinor by the Valar, they were also not aided. They were told not to leave because of the dangers that existed. Plus, I think it involved many other factors, as it were. Feanor's refusal to give them the Silmarils, and the swearing of the oath, and although, Elves such as Galadriel followed Fingolfin in the larger host of the Noldor, they were still considered defiant and rebelious of the Valar, and therefor, all came under the curse of Mandos.

[galadriel]

You all have valid points... and yet I wonder, living in constant danger and in direct contact with Morgoth's forces, if the fall of the Elves couldn't have been accomplished just as easily in Middle-earth? It would have happened differently, but I can't imagine Elves remaining completely innocent under such circumstances. Evil would worn its way in one way or another.

[Durin1]

Originally posted by galadriel
You all have valid points... and yet I wonder, living in constant danger and in direct contact with Morgoth's forces, if the fall of the Elves couldn't have been accomplished just as easily in Middle-earth? It would have happened differently, but I can't imagine Elves remaining completely innocent under such circumstances. Evil would worn its way in one way or another.

But, remember that when Melkor/Morgoth was released by the Valar, he was envious and astonished at what the Elves residing in Aman had accomplished in his absence. This was one of the reasons that he decided to reek havoc.

Also, it is stated in The Sil that Melkor remembered that the War of the Powers was made for the sake of the Elves, so I agree that evil would have wormed its way in some way or other. However, it is questionable whether the Elves' "fall" would have been on such a great scale and with so much malice and intent if Melkor did not "lust" after the accomplishments of the Elves in Aman (the Silmarils, for example).

[galadriel]

Good point.... If the Elves hadn't been in Aman, then they wouldn't have been directly in contact with Melkor during his "redemptive" period.

[Elenna Alaniel]

but they would have if Melkor would return to Middle-Earth

[galadriel]

Interestingly enough, I was reading Morgoth's Ring last night and found another reason for the Valar's decision to bring the Elves to Aman: in Middle-earth, they were under the impression that death was permanent. In Aman, they were freed of this fear. So if they had all stayed in Middle-earth, this could have been a powerful tool in Morgoth's hands.

[Durin1]

Originally posted by galadriel
Interestingly enough, I was reading Morgoth's Ring last night and found another reason for the Valar's decision to bring the Elves to Aman: in Middle-earth, they were under the impression that death was permanent. In Aman, they were freed of this fear. So if they had all stayed in Middle-earth, this could have been a powerful tool in Morgoth's hands.

Death or deathlessness plays an important part in Tolkien's works, especially the idea of "fading". However, I sometimes wonder how the Avari/Sindar/Nandor et al managed to stay perfectly happy in ME without having travelled to Aman. The Silvan Elves seemed to have been happy enough staying in ME (it was their home after all), so why shouldn't this have been true for the Eldar?

Another point - what was the PURPOSE of the existence of the Elves if all they were to do was reside in Aman forever? Surely their sub-creational capabilities would have been put to good use if they were to enrich the "mortal lands"?