Helm's Deep?

legolas7410 · 02-22-2003, 10:59 PM

what do you people think of the elfs comming in the movie(the tt)to helmsdeep to help rohan?? do you think they should of stuck to the book?? if they stuck to the book how do you think the scene should of gone??(please move to movie forum i was in the wrong forum)

Celebriel · 02-22-2003, 11:29 PM

I do not like how the writers did not stay true to the books, but the scene was fine anyway. Poor Haldir. I believe the appearance of the elves was to add hope to the battle. If there were just the people of Rohan, the fight would seem very one-sided.

I also think the addition of elves helped visualize the mortality of the elves that had not been explored in the Fellowship.

- Celebriel

gollum9630 · 02-23-2003, 01:15 AM

The scene was awesome, and i think it was so that the victory did not seem fake. Also, the women and children went to Helms Deep, but in the book Eowyn was asked to watch over the people by Theoden

legolas_the_great · 02-23-2003, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Celebriel
I do not like how the writers did not stay true to the books, but the scene was fine anyway. Poor Haldir. I believe the appearance of the elves was to add hope to the battle. If there were just the people of Rohan, the fight would seem very one-sided.

I also think the addition of elves helped visualize the mortality of the elves that had not been explored in the Fellowship.

- Celebriel

i agree but it was a good scene

gimli7410 · 02-23-2003, 01:48 AM

i hated it when haldir died but also i dont think the elves should of come it just ruined it for me

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-23-2003, 02:27 AM

Yes, that kinda invalidates the 'Last' Alliance of Men and Elves, doesn't it?

Anyway, I believe there's already a topic on this.

Aranwe · 02-23-2003, 10:37 AM

Quote:

The scene was awesome, and i think it was so that the victory did not seem fake

It wouldn't have been fake if they stuck to the book... Eomer and the Riders would have been there already, instead of arriving late after all the Elves were dead. In the movie there were only 300 men (before the elves arrive) vs the 10,000 uruks/wild men, but in the book there are just more Riders and Eomer there to begin with.

Celebréiel · 02-23-2003, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Celebriel
I do not like how the writers did not stay true to the books, but the scene was fine anyway. Poor Haldir. I believe the appearance of the elves was to add hope to the battle. If there were just the people of Rohan, the fight would seem very one-sided.

I also think the addition of elves helped visualize the mortality of the elves that had not been explored in the Fellowship.

- Celebriel

wait....what? WHy do you have my name. *grumbles*

Sween · 02-23-2003, 01:50 PM

allthougyh i dont really have anything against the elves turning up at helms deep (hey elves are cool) it was one of those point in the story where you just didnt feel the need in them. there was nothing wrong with the battle as it reads in the books.

I think it deminished the people of Rohan who have a very capiable army which didnt seem to exist.

Lizra · 02-23-2003, 02:00 PM

Yes, I think if the Orthanc division was given massive doses of steroids. The 'overkill" in that department called for "pulling a rabbit out of a hat" (elves) for the Rohan contingent. I would have prefered a good old fashioned battle with slower shots, less special effects and "real" fighting. Everything was overdone!

Balrog_of_Morgoth · 02-24-2003, 08:29 PM

Lizra:

I agree with that. The shots were a little quick for my taste. Do you suppose that makes it easier to pull of the special effects and possible cut down on the graphic violence thing for the PG 13 rating? I don't know.

Lizra · 02-24-2003, 08:44 PM

I don't know either! I very rarely see movies! I've thought the orcs were too hideous from the very start. Many have suggested this was because PJ had a background in horror movies (or whatever you call those things!

) And he was just doing his thing. The scarier the orcs (uruks) get, the more superhuman the good guys have to be to conquer them. It starts to get out of control if you ask me! Comic books?

Aranwe · 02-25-2003, 02:43 PM

Quote:

I think it deminished the people of Rohan who have a very capiable army which didnt seem to exist.

Not really, 2000 armoured men on horses is a pretty good army, plus the 300 guards/commoners from the city.

In the book it takes days for the king to ready the 6000 horsemen he can spare for Gondor, and as it happened in the movie there would be no time to prepare anyone outside of the city.

It doesn't really look like a huge place as it is shown, so most of the army wouldn't actually live within the walls.

legolas_the_great · 02-26-2003, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lizra
Yes, I think if the Orthanc division was given massive doses of steroids. The 'overkill" in that department called for "pulling a rabbit out of a hat" (elves) for the Rohan contingent. I would have prefered a good old fashioned battle with slower shots, less special effects and "real" fighting. Everything was overdone!

the only reason they won in the book was because orks are stupid!

Bombadillo · 04-07-2003, 11:10 PM

What did Peter Jackson do to Helm's Deep? Elves? What? Bad!

What do you all think?

Gwaimir Windgem · 04-07-2003, 11:31 PM

I think this could easily go in the topic up top about the Two Towers. But of course, I may very well be wrong.

We'll have to wait to see what the admins say.

***IronParrot*** · 04-07-2003, 11:34 PM

In the context of the film, I didn't mind the change regarding the Elves.

I would really like to elaborate on my reasoning here but it would probably take up a lot of time and space that I don't really have right now. So I'll just do a point-form summary of some things to consider... think of it as the Cliff Notes for my response.

- Elves were already introduced and familiar to the audience - the Dunedain, on the other hand, were not... suitable replacement follows

- Developing Elrond as a character, and his sense of responsibility regarding the fate of Middle-Earth even if the Elves are leaving anyway

- A whole bunch of philosophical drivel about moral categorical imperatives and thematic implications I won't touch unless specifically asked

- The death of the otherwise immortal Elves in battle as symbolic of the ultimate mortality of Middle-Earth and the fading of the Elves

- Most of the Elvish involvement in the War of the Ring is in the background, especially with the defence of Lothlorien and such - in film, relegating action to the background would pose questions about the Elves' suspicious absence from foreground events

Gwaimir Windgem · 04-07-2003, 11:50 PM

I take it the admins think this topic is fine as a stand-alone.

***IronParrot*** · 04-07-2003, 11:59 PM

My personal judgment as an admin is that this is enough of a specific issue that this forum gives it plenty of room to move. Given the intentions of the general reaction thread to The Two Towers when it was created, and how it continues to be used today, that's more for holistic judgments, reflections and discussion of the film as a whole. The handling of Helm's Deep in the film is a topic within a narrower framework.

Bombadillo · 04-08-2003, 11:05 AM

It may have made for a good portion of the movie, but the Battle of Helm's Deep would have been just as good without elves. Better, because it follows the book. It twists Tolkien's work, for no reason at all. It doesn't attract people to the theatres or make more money. In fact, it probably costed more for all the extra actors and props and such. I think it's just blasphemy.

02-22-2003, 10:59 PM	#1
legolas7410 Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: For me to know and you to find out Posts: 35	helmsdeep what do you people think of the elfs comming in the movie(the tt)to helmsdeep to help rohan?? do you think they should of stuck to the book?? if they stuck to the book how do you think the scene should of gone??(please move to movie forum i was in the wrong forum) __________________ system of a down stone sour slipknot and many more canada is the greatest country in the world. Last edited by legolas7410 : 02-22-2003 at 11:07 PM.

02-23-2003, 01:15 AM	#3
gollum9630 Canadian Guy. Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The true North Strong and Free Posts: 1,513	The scene was awesome, and i think it was so that the victory did not seem fake. Also, the women and children went to Helms Deep, but in the book Eowyn was asked to watch over the people by Theoden __________________ "Canadians are so apathetic, but, what are you gonna do about it" -Glen Foster Wierd Harry Potter quotes the old nintendo duck hunt game Lemmings Swron Random Homer Simpson Quotes

02-23-2003, 01:48 AM	#5
gimli7410 the dumb stoner canuck Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: canada Posts: 2,542	i hated it when haldir died but also i dont think the elves should of come it just ruined it for me __________________ -"Down with the system"-Serj tankian of system of a down -“Humans have been on the earth for millions of years, yet we don’t believe man began thinking until he started building walls. And what good have these walls ever done us?”-Serj tankian of soad -"stupid people do stupid things"-Serj tankian of soad "Trying is the first step to failure" Homer Simpson "It isn't going to be easy"-jerseydevil "only the good die young" I AM CANADIAN If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

02-23-2003, 02:27 AM	#6
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Yes, that kinda invalidates the 'Last' Alliance of Men and Elves, doesn't it? Anyway, I believe there's already a topic on this. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

02-23-2003, 01:50 PM	#9
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	allthougyh i dont really have anything against the elves turning up at helms deep (hey elves are cool) it was one of those point in the story where you just didnt feel the need in them. there was nothing wrong with the battle as it reads in the books. I think it deminished the people of Rohan who have a very capiable army which didnt seem to exist. __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

02-22-2003, 11:29 PM	#2
Celebriel Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 139	I do not like how the writers did not stay true to the books, but the scene was fine anyway. Poor Haldir. I believe the appearance of the elves was to add hope to the battle. If there were just the people of Rohan, the fight would seem very one-sided. I also think the addition of elves helped visualize the mortality of the elves that had not been explored in the Fellowship. - Celebriel

02-23-2003, 02:00 PM	#10
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Yes, I think if the Orthanc division was given massive doses of steroids. The 'overkill" in that department called for "pulling a rabbit out of a hat" (elves) for the Rohan contingent. I would have prefered a good old fashioned battle with slower shots, less special effects and "real" fighting. Everything was overdone! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

02-24-2003, 08:29 PM	#11
Balrog_of_Morgoth Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Parkersburg WV Posts: 110	Lizra: I agree with that. The shots were a little quick for my taste. Do you suppose that makes it easier to pull of the special effects and possible cut down on the graphic violence thing for the PG 13 rating? I don't know. __________________ Fingolfin: The Mighty Elven Lord who challenged Morgoth to single combat!

02-24-2003, 08:44 PM	#12
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	I don't know either! I very rarely see movies! I've thought the orcs were too hideous from the very start. Many have suggested this was because PJ had a background in horror movies (or whatever you call those things! ) And he was just doing his thing. The scarier the orcs (uruks) get, the more superhuman the good guys have to be to conquer them. It starts to get out of control if you ask me! Comic books? __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

04-07-2003, 11:10 PM	#15
Bombadillo "The Bomb" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: all over the place Posts: 1,601	Helm's Deep? What did Peter Jackson do to Helm's Deep? Elves? What? Bad! What do you all think? __________________ Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity?

04-07-2003, 11:31 PM	#16
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I think this could easily go in the topic up top about the Two Towers. But of course, I may very well be wrong. We'll have to wait to see what the admins say. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

04-07-2003, 11:34 PM	#17
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	In the context of the film, I didn't mind the change regarding the Elves. I would really like to elaborate on my reasoning here but it would probably take up a lot of time and space that I don't really have right now. So I'll just do a point-form summary of some things to consider... think of it as the Cliff Notes for my response. - Elves were already introduced and familiar to the audience - the Dunedain, on the other hand, were not... suitable replacement follows - Developing Elrond as a character, and his sense of responsibility regarding the fate of Middle-Earth even if the Elves are leaving anyway - A whole bunch of philosophical drivel about moral categorical imperatives and thematic implications I won't touch unless specifically asked - The death of the otherwise immortal Elves in battle as symbolic of the ultimate mortality of Middle-Earth and the fading of the Elves - Most of the Elvish involvement in the War of the Ring is in the background, especially with the defence of Lothlorien and such - in film, relegating action to the background would pose questions about the Elves' suspicious absence from foreground events __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

04-07-2003, 11:50 PM	#18
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I take it the admins think this topic is fine as a stand-alone. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

04-07-2003, 11:59 PM	#19
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	My personal judgment as an admin is that this is enough of a specific issue that this forum gives it plenty of room to move. Given the intentions of the general reaction thread to The Two Towers when it was created, and how it continues to be used today, that's more for holistic judgments, reflections and discussion of the film as a whole. The handling of Helm's Deep in the film is a topic within a narrower framework. __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

04-08-2003, 11:05 AM	#20
Bombadillo "The Bomb" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: all over the place Posts: 1,601	It may have made for a good portion of the movie, but the Battle of Helm's Deep would have been just as good without elves. Better, because it follows the book. It twists Tolkien's work, for no reason at all. It doesn't attract people to the theatres or make more money. In fact, it probably costed more for all the extra actors and props and such. I think it's just blasphemy. __________________ Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity?

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