Did Maeglin had a chance?

Maedhros · 11-08-2002, 12:04 AM

Let's look at the life of Maeglin, did he really had a chance of being good.
His father was Eöl and his mother Aredhel.

Quote:

And Aredhel bore to Eöl a son in the shadows of Nan Elmoth, and in her heart she gave him a name in the forbidden tongue of the Noldor, Lómion, that signifies Child of the Twilight; but his father gave him no name until he was twelve years old. Then he called him Maeglin, which is Sharp Glance, for he perceived that the eyes of his son were more piercing than his own, and his thought could read the secrets of hearts beyond the mist of words.

He had a desire to see Gondolin because of her mother and it was then that he first hears the name of Idril.

Quote:

Yet it is said that Maeglin loved his mother better, and if Eöl were abroad he would sit long beside her and listen to all that she could tell him of her kin and their deeds in Eldamar, and of the might and valour of the princes of the House of Fingolfin. All these things he laid to heart, but most of all that which he heard of Turgon, and that he had no heir; for Elenwë his wife perished in the crossing of the Helcaraxë, and his daughter Idril Celebrindal was his only child.

Look at how his father treated him:

Quote:

'You are of the house of Eöl, Maeglin, my son,' he said, 'and not of the Golodhrim. All this land is the land of the Teleri, and I will not deal nor have my son deal with the slayers of our kin, the invaders and usurpers of our homes. In this you shall obey me, or I will set you in bonds.' And Maeglin did not answer, but was cold and silent, and went abroad no more with Eöl; and Eöl mistrusted him.

He was even cursed by his own father.

Quote:

But not so Maeglin. My son you shall not withhold from me. Come, Maeglin son of Eöl! Your father commands you. Leave the house of his enemies and the slayers of his kin, or be accursed!'

And look how his loved one thought of him.

Quote:

Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it: an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor.

So, I ask you again, did he really had a chance in his life? He who was forever destined to be hated by the one he loved?

All quotes comes from the Published Silmarillion

Lefty Scaevola · 11-08-2002, 01:02 PM

Rejected by one parent and one loeve object, love and honored by his grandfather and MANY of the people of Gondolin. Had his achivments rocgnized and rewarded with position, wealth and respect. Does not seem to have had it all that bad. People with much much less behaved better. A much more vulnarable in body mortal Hurin resisted domination from Morgoth much better, even with all his loved ones at direct physcial risk, whereas Maeglin was controlled, even when that incresed rather than decreased the danger to his family and friends.

Ñólendil · 11-08-2002, 08:53 PM

I think everyone has and had a chance. Certainly when Morgoth brought him before his throne, he had a chance not to betray his beloved Gondolin, and all the people in it. I don't care about his background, he didn't have to do what he did. The alternative was no doubt death (swift or slow), but it was the only right thing to do.

Keith K · 11-13-2002, 12:47 AM

He never had a chance at being a "good" guy. The story required a Judas to bring Gondolin down. Being a Noldoran city it was ensnared in the Doom of Mandos which predicted treachery as the means for the Exiles end. Maeglin is well suited for the role of tragic traitor. He could not overcome his fate and didn't even try to.

Lefty Scaevola · 11-13-2002, 09:10 AM

I am not so Maeglin was specificly fated for treachery. Predicting that there would treachery among the enemies of the greatest seducer in creation, Morgoth Bauglir, is not much more difficult that predicting there will be tragedy in the war. Over time is just bound to happen, and it is amazing that it did not occur more often.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 11-27-2002, 03:47 AM

I think that although everyone has a chance to do, or be, good, Maeglin did not have a particuarly good chance, considering the evidence from the book given by Maedhros. As a 'tool' for Tolkien in terms of plot and needing someone to bring down the city, he definitely didn't have a chance, as pointed out by Keith. As for his character and person, I think that considering his parents and his pattern of rejection, he didn't have much chance. He didn't seem the type to carry on despite hardship, as others in worse positions might.

Kirinki54 · 11-27-2002, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith K
He never had a chance at being a "good" guy. The story required a Judas to bring Gondolin down. Being a Noldoran city it was ensnared in the Doom of Mandos which predicted treachery as the means for the Exiles end. Maeglin is well suited for the role of tragic traitor. He could not overcome his fate and didn't even try to.

I am not saying that Maeglin was without a chance to be "good". That ability might be inherent in everybody. But as for his treason, at least Tolkien provided us with a very good background explanation why Maeglin had such a poor foundation for loyalty. His role as a "Judas" (and Tolkien did need one for the story) comes across rather naturally, IMHO.

Elanor Gamgee · 11-28-2002, 07:16 PM

Kirinki,
Sorry for drifting off-topic, I just wanted to say "Hi"

It's an interesting discussion going on in the Telerin ships thread. Come over, Ithildin and I are shredding Feanor to pieces... O-ops, sorry, I mean we are discussing his selfish motives

Kirinki54 · 11-29-2002, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
Kirinki,
Sorry for drifting off-topic, I just wanted to say "Hi" It's an interesting discussion going on in the Telerin ships thread. Come over, Ithildin and I are shredding Feanor to pieces... O-ops, sorry, I mean we are discussing his selfish motives

And I thought Feanor did that just fine by himself...

Well lets go have a looksee...

Elanor Gamgee · 11-29-2002, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54
And I thought Feanor did that just fine by himself...
Well lets go have a looksee...

Do you suggest that I am siding with Morgoth in this one?

Kirinki54 · 11-29-2002, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
Do you suggest that I am siding with Morgoth in this one?

Nope, you would never side with MMorgoth...

I meant Feanor´s actions doomed himself, and destroyed his rep for times to come.

Now having said that, I wonder if it is true. I will open another thread.

Elanor Gamgee · 11-29-2002, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54
Nope, you would never side with MMorgoth...

That's the best I've heard so far!

Quote:

I meant Feanor´s actions doomed himself, and destroyed his rep for times to come.
Now having said that, I wonder if it is true. I will open another thread.

Go ahead! Looking forward to meeting you there

11-08-2002, 08:53 PM	#3
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I think everyone has and had a chance. Certainly when Morgoth brought him before his throne, he had a chance not to betray his beloved Gondolin, and all the people in it. I don't care about his background, he didn't have to do what he did. The alternative was no doubt death (swift or slow), but it was the only right thing to do. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

11-13-2002, 09:10 AM	#5
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	I am not so Maeglin was specificly fated for treachery. Predicting that there would treachery among the enemies of the greatest seducer in creation, Morgoth Bauglir, is not much more difficult that predicting there will be tragedy in the war. Over time is just bound to happen, and it is amazing that it did not occur more often. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

11-27-2002, 03:47 AM	#6
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	I think that although everyone has a chance to do, or be, good, Maeglin did not have a particuarly good chance, considering the evidence from the book given by Maedhros. As a 'tool' for Tolkien in terms of plot and needing someone to bring down the city, he definitely didn't have a chance, as pointed out by Keith. As for his character and person, I think that considering his parents and his pattern of rejection, he didn't have much chance. He didn't seem the type to carry on despite hardship, as others in worse positions might. __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

11-28-2002, 07:16 PM	#8
Elanor Gamgee Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Shire Posts: 49	Kirinki, Sorry for drifting off-topic, I just wanted to say "Hi" It's an interesting discussion going on in the Telerin ships thread. Come over, Ithildin and I are shredding Feanor to pieces... O-ops, sorry, I mean we are discussing his selfish motives __________________ Above all shadows rides the Sun And stars forever dwell; I will not say the day is done, Nor bid the stars farewell.

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11-08-2002, 01:02 PM	#2
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Rejected by one parent and one loeve object, love and honored by his grandfather and MANY of the people of Gondolin. Had his achivments rocgnized and rewarded with position, wealth and respect. Does not seem to have had it all that bad. People with much much less behaved better. A much more vulnarable in body mortal Hurin resisted domination from Morgoth much better, even with all his loved ones at direct physcial risk, whereas Maeglin was controlled, even when that incresed rather than decreased the danger to his family and friends.

11-13-2002, 12:47 AM	#4
Keith K Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: charlotte, n.c. Posts: 1,081	He never had a chance at being a "good" guy. The story required a Judas to bring Gondolin down. Being a Noldoran city it was ensnared in the Doom of Mandos which predicted treachery as the means for the Exiles end. Maeglin is well suited for the role of tragic traitor. He could not overcome his fate and didn't even try to.