marriage

[katya]

Sorry if this is a dumb thread, but my mom and I were discussing the topic for hours and never really came to any conclusions. I just wanted to see what everyone else had to say.
What is marriage? If you "marry" someone without the church or any legal marriage is it still marriage? Also, for what cultures is it true that to be officially married, you have to have sexual intercourse (therefore making it impossible for gays to marry depending on your definitions and so on)?
I'll admit that the real topic of our discussion was same-sex marriage, but I'd rather not get into that. I just want to hear your opinions on marriage in general.

If you agree that sexual intercourse is necessary to finalize the marriage, how do you explain the tradition of the "Virgin" Mary?

[Elf Girl]

Marriage is whatever the people involved want it to be, I think.

[inked]

Marriage is the union of two oppositely sexed individuals into a union for the continuation and development of families. It is a universal human institution which has been present in all known societies. It has taken various forms within that definition. Thus some societies have polygamy (one husband and more than one wife), polyandry (one wife and more than one husband), and the union of one man to one woman (monogamy). Variations on these types of basic arrangements have existed, of course.

Western civilization has been dominantly monogamous. And for the bulk of history marriages have been arranged and not the result of 'falling in love'. It has been used a political arrangement and a means of aligning finances as well.

Committed relationships between same sexed couples have NOT been marriage in human cultures. This is a concept originating in the 20th century and currently being promulgated as a civil rights issues. Many do not find it to be a civil rights issue requiring the alteration of human experience and historical reality, but one which can be addressed in merely legal terms. So there is a societal/cultural aspect to the concept of marriage. I am unaware of any religious definition of marriage other than the joining of oppositely sexed individuals.

By the by, sexual congress or intercourse is not required for marriage. It is the consummation of the marriage covenant or contract (religious vs legal conceptions, pardon the pun).

In the case at point, Mary and Joseph, the Jewish law regarded an espoused (engaged) couple as man and wife. If Mary had been with child by another man she would have been guilty of adultery and eligible for death by stoning. That was the reason Joseph was "minded to put her away privately" to avoid the legal consequences that would accrue to her.

The doctrine of the Virgin Birth of Jesus of Nazareth is not the same as that of Mary's perpetual virginity (for those who hold it).

Does that help?

[brownjenkins]

inked covered the history pretty well... though there are some details left out... intermarriage between those of different faiths was forbidden in many cultures (and still is within some belief systems today)

interracial marriage was also almost unheard of till very recently

and "marriage" outside of religious institutions has been legal in the US since it's founding

so the definition, like everything else in human society changes over time

the only constant i see is that marriage is a "permanent" social contract (and sometimes legal) between two (or more) humans until one of those humans changes their mind

[katya]

Hmm, interesting comments. I shall ponder.

In case anyone was confused, this is what I meant about Mary:
My mom says that in ("well, probably...") every civilization, there has to be sexual intercourse to consummate (I forgot that word- thanks inked^^) the marriage. Otherwise, the marriage is invalid. I think, according to tradition (at least of the Catholic church) that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Even forgetting Jesus for the moment, Mary was said to be a virgin for her whole life. She also happened to be married, and lived with her husband (right?). So according to my mom, she must have been living in sin. That's why I didn't really think it was totally true. Also, what if one or both people were severely mutilated to the point where they were unable to "consummate" the marriage? Are they not allowed to get married?

[brownjenkins]

one would assume that they were married according to hebrew tradition, in which consummation takes place after the marriage, and while a "tradition"... i do not believe it was "required"

[BeardofPants]

Marriage is for wieners.

[inked]

Nefarious nicker of pants, begone!
Thy self impos'ed exile long
Is not done!
Begone, I say,
Till light of day
Eight has dawned.
Else, lost thy mind
And worse
thy
pants
!

__________________
This for your own good, BoP, as you said yourself!

[Nurvingiel]

Lol Inked, nice poem.

Originally Posted by inked

Marriage is the union of two oppositely sexed individuals into a union for the continuation and development of families.

I think it should be noted that this is according to your own beliefs and/or societies definition of marriage.

Committed relationships between same sexed couples have NOT been marriage in human cultures. This is a concept originating in the 20th century and currently being promulgated as a civil rights issues.

Actually that's not true, but I can't remember the example. I believe it was a culture in India where a widow could marry another woman, who would take on the role of the husband, or something. I totally forget. This was from an Anthropology class I took two years ago. (And I didn't brings its notes to Sweden, or I'd look the example up for you. )
You can say same-sex marriages have been very uncommon until now.

So there is a societal/cultural aspect to the concept of marriage. I am unaware of any religious definition of marriage other than the joining of oppositely sexed individuals.

Marriage, in fact, is entirely defined by society, especially if we include religion to be a part of society, which I think it is.

The doctrine of the Virgin Birth of Jesus of Nazareth is not the same as that of Mary's perpetual virginity (for those who hold it).

When Mary was called the Virgin Mary, the word "virgin" actually meant "young girl" rather than someone who has never had sex. Therefore, she was not living in sin or what have you. (What an idea!) I don't have a specific reference, but IIRC it was our bishop who said that and I'm inclined to believe him.

[Rían]

Yes, but it also says that Mary had not been (in the sexual sense) with a man. That makes it pretty clear she was a virgin in the sexual sense!

I disagree with the Catholic tradition that Mary remained a virgin her whole life. I don't think God would be that mean to Joseph! And the Bible talks of Jesus's brothers and sisters, altho the Catholics say that can be translated near relatives. To me, it's a more natural and straightforward reading that Mary did NOT stay a virgin after Jesus's birth. Why should she? It just seems an unnatural thing. After all, God Himself instituted marriage, including sex.

[katya]

Yeah, I know. I've heard the thing about "virgin" really being young girl, and about Jesus having siblings, etc., but Mary being a virgin for life is a tradition too according to some people. My mom is Catholic, by the way, so... Who knows? I was just using it as an example. If some people can accept that Mary was perpetually a virgin, they must accept that she married without sex.
Also, I read a long time ago (though I looked it up again to make sure) in a lives of saints book that Saint Cecilia, though she was married (against her will, I believe) to a pagan (I think it was a pagan...) she desired to remain a virgin. He consented, I guess. It's just another example.

[BeardofPants]

Inked, as you may have realised from my nefarious pants-stealing plot... I have no self-control.

Er.... yeah, anyway, marriage..... um....

[Rían]

Marriage is very cool. I've been married for 18 years now, and it's the second-best thing that's ever happened to me It's a lot of work sometimes, but the results are wonderful and MORE than worth the work you put into it! And I think a strong marriage is one of the best things you can give to your kids.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by katya

I think, according to tradition (at least of the Catholic church) that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Even forgetting Jesus for the moment, Mary was said to be a virgin for her whole life. She also happened to be married, and lived with her husband (right?). So according to my mom, she must have been living in sin.

In all my Catholic schools - it was never taught that mary was a Virgin forever. She was just a virgin when she conceived Jesus without sex. After she married Joseph - it is felt she did not remain a virgin. Calling her "Virgin Mary" - is not to mean she was a perpetual virgin (at least in my Catholic schools).

[Count Comfect]

Hmm... just a thought I had, but committed relationships between same sex couples was the norm in a very important Western society - Ancient Greece. That's why homosexuality used to be referred to as "Greek love." Of course, they also had wives as well, often chosen by their partner...

[Tessar]

Mary was a virgin her entire life . How else could she be "The Blessed Ever Virgin Mary"?

I'm not really expecting anyone to believe me who isn't a catholic, but I'd think Rian would agree with me :-p.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Mary was a virgin her entire life . How else could she be "The Blessed Ever Virgin Mary"?

I'm not really expecting anyone to believe me who isn't a catholic, but I'd think Rian would agree with me :-p.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

Well - it wasn't what I was taught. But then again - the US Catholic church isn't looked too highly on by the Vatican - because it's so rebellious here. If I was still catholic - I would still not believe she was a virgin forever. No where in the Bible does it say that she was forever a virgin.

[Tessar]

{edited}

Just realized that my statement would probably take the thread off course. So never mind .

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Mary was a virgin her entire life .

No, she wasn't

How else could she be "The Blessed Ever Virgin Mary"?

Just because the Catholic church says it, doesn't mean it's true They've reversed themselves before! (no disrespect to the RCC)

I'm not really expecting anyone to believe me who isn't a catholic, but I'd think Rian would agree with me :-p.

Are you teasing, or serious?

My position on Mary's virginity is that she was a virgin until the birth of Christ, which the Bible states and I think is reasonable theologically. After that, I tend to think the straightforward reading of Jesus having brothers and sisters is the most natural and right reading, so she wouldn't have remained a virgin. Also, knowing how God actually COMMANDS husbands and wives to NOT deny each other physically except for SHORT periods for prayer, I just don't see why God would want her to remain a virgin. But the most important thing is that I think it's wrong that the Catholic church has such a strong stance on it - I think they should concentrate on more important things than Mary's sexual status after Jesus was born. That's one major reason why I have problems with the Catholic church.

[Nurvingiel]

The Catholic Church has reversed themselves before!? Also, no disrespect intended at Catholics or Catholicism.

I think marriage is important to the structure of society. It's part of all cultures, and a way for two (or more) people to form an alliance and/or express their love for each other and/or a host of other things.

Studying marriage accross cultures is completely fascinating!

Okay, the Virgin Mary totally rules, but she's not the only person who was married.