Balrogs

Beregond · 01-08-2005, 09:39 AM

Is there more than 1 Balrog in middle earth or is the one in moria the only one

ItalianLegolas · 01-08-2005, 04:44 PM

maybe there are more then 1 at the time of the War of the Ring, I'm not sure if Tolkien ever mentions whether there are any more in Middle-Earth, it might be in the Appendices somewhere...

Radagast The Brown · 01-08-2005, 05:10 PM

I'd say that probably he was the o nly one left. There weren't many Balrogs in the First Age, and most of them were killed in the War of Wrath (not sure about the name. It's my translation. I refer to the last war in the first age).

I don't tihnk Tolkien said if it was or wasn't, but haven't read many books so...

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-08-2005, 05:17 PM

It was the War of the Wrath Rad.
Apparntly there was only about 7 in the 1st age and as RtB said, most were destroyed in the War of the Wrath and Gothmog was killed in the siege of Gondolin.

ItalianLegolas · 01-08-2005, 05:45 PM

only 7 Balrogs huh? I never counted them, but I always assumed there would be more...

Radagast The Brown · 01-08-2005, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

only 7 Balrogs huh? I never counted them, but I always assumed there would be more...

Yeah, it looks like there are hundreds in the Silmarillion, the way it's described. But Tolkien changed his mind after he got older. There are many things that are wrong in the Silmarillion - that Tolkien changed later on.

ItalianLegolas · 01-08-2005, 06:38 PM

don't have to tell me that twice...

Attalus · 01-08-2005, 07:35 PM

It's one of many reasons I hesitate to recommend the Sil77 to newbies.

ItalianLegolas · 01-09-2005, 10:44 AM

if there were a lot of balrogs at the time of the War of the Ring, then Sauron probably woudl have won

Pytt · 01-09-2005, 11:01 AM

If the Balrogs would have helped Sauron. and I don't know that. Like tha balrog in Moria, I thionk he stayed of his own choice and if Sauron had spoken to him, I think the balrog was his own master. and I think the others could have turned out that way too. If Sauron had promised them land for themselvs, maybe they would have helped him.
and if that case, yes I think Sauron would have won.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-09-2005, 12:08 PM

It would not have made any differance to who won, unless you had Balrogs standing guard of Sammath Nuar or Cirith Ungol. Sauron was defeated because of the destruction of the Ring, not because of victory on the Pelennor.

ItalianLegolas · 01-09-2005, 12:33 PM

good point

Pytt · 01-09-2005, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It would not have made any differance to who won, unless you had Balrogs standing guard of Sammath Nuar or Cirith Ungol. Sauron was defeated because of the destruction of the Ring, not because of victory on the Pelennor.

yeah, I thought about that afterwards....

Twista · 01-27-2005, 02:46 PM

Im sure in the Sil it says all were vanquished bar one that fled deep into the mountains..

of course it could be my mind playing tricks.. someone confirm?

Elemmírë · 01-27-2005, 03:28 PM

From the Silm:

Quote:

The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth...

From memory, that's pretty good, Twista.

Doesn't give an exact number, but it can't be that many. I've seen the number 7 given for the total number of Balrogs, but I can't remember where. I don't think I saw it in any of the books I've read so far...

You know, if Balrog/s had come to help Sauron, Sauron himself would have most likely still lost, but you'd still have at least one Balrog to deal with afterwards...

And I don't see any Fëanors/Fingolfins/Fingons/Echthelions/Glorfindels around... Well, scratch the Glorfindel, but still...

Twista · 01-27-2005, 03:38 PM

Quite proud of myself then

Happy 1000th by the way...

Elemmírë · 01-27-2005, 04:05 PM

Thank you!

I wonder though... does anyone know where the number seven comes from? I bet its in HoME 12 (must... have... book...) I hope it is... otherwise I have no excuse for not remembering where I read it... or not reading it in the actual material...

Attalus · 01-30-2005, 02:16 PM

I think that I saw the number seven in the Letters.

Elemmírë · 01-30-2005, 02:27 PM

Hm. I couldn't find it in the Letters myself (Balrog only had three entries in the index, and none discussed the numbers).
I found the number 1000 in The Shaping of Middle-earth!

Somehow I think that number was later changed...

It's probably in the Peoples of Middle Earth. Everything that I'm looking for and can't find seems to end up being in that book.

I'll look it up again as soon as I can order that book...

me9996 · 01-30-2005, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beregond

Is there more than 1 Balrog in middle earth or is the one in moria the only one

There are more, they were the minions of Morgoth (Read the silmarilion)

P.S.
Does anyone else here realy not like the 90 second rule?

01-08-2005, 09:39 AM	#1
Beregond Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: England Posts: 28	Balrogs Is there more than 1 Balrog in middle earth or is the one in moria the only one

01-08-2005, 04:44 PM	#2
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	maybe there are more then 1 at the time of the War of the Ring, I'm not sure if Tolkien ever mentions whether there are any more in Middle-Earth, it might be in the Appendices somewhere... __________________ What was lost is now found.

01-08-2005, 05:10 PM	#3
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	I'd say that probably he was the o nly one left. There weren't many Balrogs in the First Age, and most of them were killed in the War of Wrath (not sure about the name. It's my translation. I refer to the last war in the first age). I don't tihnk Tolkien said if it was or wasn't, but haven't read many books so... __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

01-08-2005, 05:17 PM	#4
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	It was the War of the Wrath Rad. Apparntly there was only about 7 in the 1st age and as RtB said, most were destroyed in the War of the Wrath and Gothmog was killed in the siege of Gondolin. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

01-08-2005, 05:45 PM	#5
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	only 7 Balrogs huh? I never counted them, but I always assumed there would be more... __________________ What was lost is now found.

01-08-2005, 06:38 PM	#7
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	don't have to tell me that twice... __________________ What was lost is now found.

01-08-2005, 07:35 PM	#8
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	It's one of many reasons I hesitate to recommend the Sil77 to newbies. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

01-09-2005, 10:44 AM	#9
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	if there were a lot of balrogs at the time of the War of the Ring, then Sauron probably woudl have won __________________ What was lost is now found.

01-09-2005, 11:01 AM	#10
Pytt The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: trondheim, norway Posts: 1,388	If the Balrogs would have helped Sauron. and I don't know that. Like tha balrog in Moria, I thionk he stayed of his own choice and if Sauron had spoken to him, I think the balrog was his own master. and I think the others could have turned out that way too. If Sauron had promised them land for themselvs, maybe they would have helped him. and if that case, yes I think Sauron would have won. __________________ Don't Panic!

01-09-2005, 12:08 PM	#11
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	It would not have made any differance to who won, unless you had Balrogs standing guard of Sammath Nuar or Cirith Ungol. Sauron was defeated because of the destruction of the Ring, not because of victory on the Pelennor. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

01-09-2005, 12:33 PM	#12
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	good point __________________ What was lost is now found.

01-27-2005, 02:46 PM	#14
Twista Orodruin's Flame Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kananaskis, AB Posts: 1,194	Im sure in the Sil it says all were vanquished bar one that fled deep into the mountains.. of course it could be my mind playing tricks.. someone confirm? __________________ Council of Entmoot - Foreign Affairs Minister - 2004-05 Visit the Ye Olde Avatar Shop and The New One Dont tell me what I cannot do Two men are on a Island, they both see a "monster", one sees a bright light, and the other sees a dark cloud My name bares no reference to the music artist.

01-27-2005, 03:38 PM	#16
Twista Orodruin's Flame Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kananaskis, AB Posts: 1,194	Quite proud of myself then Happy 1000th by the way... __________________ Council of Entmoot - Foreign Affairs Minister - 2004-05 Visit the Ye Olde Avatar Shop and The New One Dont tell me what I cannot do Two men are on a Island, they both see a "monster", one sees a bright light, and the other sees a dark cloud My name bares no reference to the music artist.

01-27-2005, 04:05 PM	#17
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	Thank you! I wonder though... does anyone know where the number seven comes from? I bet its in HoME 12 (must... have... book...) I hope it is... otherwise I have no excuse for not remembering where I read it... or not reading it in the actual material... __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

01-30-2005, 02:16 PM	#18
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I think that I saw the number seven in the Letters. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

01-30-2005, 02:27 PM	#19
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	Hm. I couldn't find it in the Letters myself (Balrog only had three entries in the index, and none discussed the numbers). I found the number 1000 in The Shaping of Middle-earth! Somehow I think that number was later changed... It's probably in the Peoples of Middle Earth. Everything that I'm looking for and can't find seems to end up being in that book. I'll look it up again as soon as I can order that book... __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

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