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Old 05-17-2005, 03:40 PM   #41
Butterbeer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordis
Well, the nazgul were on 2 months long sight-seeing trip in the vales of Anduin in summer. In September they were sent to the Shire and were told that speed not secrecy was important. So they did hurry, but perhaps not as much as Gandalf who was far behind. And they made it in good time, perhaps they took half a day more than Gandalf.
I feel you just hate the idea that nz horses may be mearas.

nah not at all: ( and i mean that)

they could well be Mearas or in part from mearas stock: i just didn't think the point sufficiently proved originally and then subsequently it went un-passed and un-pursued and therefore appeared to be taken as read that they therefore WERE Mearas: i just think the argument as panned out is not sufficiently proved one way or the other yet: to say un-equivocially or for mooters to asume they were seems to me to need pulling up and looking at:

to be frank i don't really care if they were or not: maybe fear drove them on? maybe they were exceptional horses indeed: but my thought is just this: IF gandalf on shadowfax rode to the hilt like the wind back to the North then they must have been, from what we know of shadowfax and his relation to other horses of his age, superb horses indeed.


I personally feel Tolkien just had to try the best he could to get the timelines in some sort of Sync: if shadowfax pushed himself to the limit then they were ALL kings of horses themselves: not merely Mearas but CHIEFTANS of the mearas if they (almost) matched him

now: one maybe, possibly, Two: well... ok just about within reason perhaps...

ALL nine?
well i'm no expert on genetics and stud breeding etc: if it was that easy i'd go into horse-racing

(and then later down the road sell my profitable investments to M glazer! )


best
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Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-17-2005 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 05-17-2005, 04:35 PM   #42
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Oh, Butterbeer, for once I agree with your POV!
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Old 05-17-2005, 04:49 PM   #43
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sssSSHHHHHH!

Hush now .... it'll be the end of debate in our times!

.... which bit did you particularly agree with???
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Old 05-17-2005, 05:27 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterbeer
which bit did you particularly agree with???
This bit: " they could well be Mearas or in part from mearas stock: i just didn't think the point sufficiently proved originally and then subsequently it went un-passed and un-pursued and therefore appeared to be taken as read that they therefore WERE Mearas: i just think the argument as panned out is not sufficiently proved one way or the other yet: to say un-equivocially or for mooters to asume they were seems to me to need pulling up and looking at:
to be frank i don't really care if they were or not: maybe fear drove them on? maybe they were exceptional horses indeed: but my thought is just this: IF gandalf on shadowfax rode to the hilt like the wind back to the North then they must have been, from what we know of shadowfax and his relation to other horses of his age, superb horses indeed."

As for the rest: why do you think that ordinary mearas and the Chieftain of the mearas differ in speed that much?

And just a thought, what about Asfaloth? Was he a Mearas as well or came from an entirely different line?
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Old 05-17-2005, 05:47 PM   #45
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well Tolkien says Shadowfax is the chieftan and he leaves all other horses for dead ... seems a reasonable premise: this whole idea throughout tolkien about royalty and Lineage: King or Lord xxx was taller it seemed or etc etc ...



as for the elven horse: haven't a clue!
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Old 05-17-2005, 06:01 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterbeer
well Tolkien says Shadowfax is the chieftan and he leaves all other horses for dead ... seems a reasonable premise: this whole idea throughout tolkien about royalty and Lineage: King or Lord xxx was taller it seemed or etc etc ...!
Exactly. The Lord of the horses leaves all ordinary horses for dead and IS swifter than his kin the ordinary mearas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterbeer
as for the elven horse: haven't a clue!
Me neither. Probably we should check the Sil. As far as I remember the Noldor came from Valinor without horses (?). Then the elven horses came from ME. And what is the nobler horse line in ME than the descendents of Orome's steed? So the elven horses may be related to mearas.
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Old 05-17-2005, 06:17 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by gordis
Wonderful! At this rate we can soon have all Mordorian cavalry on Mearas! Gordis jumps happily and screeches from pure joy
Unfortunately, if we are speaking about mearas, than we must remember that they had the same lifespan as men (see the quote in my previous post), so the 3 year old mares will be hardly ready to breed. And how about foal mortality in Mordor conditions? And what if the horses after close acquaintance with the nazgul die? Or had only stillborn foals? And so on and so on - conjecture upon conjecture .
Several points on this paragraph. First, like Numenoreans, the longevity of the mearas life span doesn't mean that their growth is likewise slowed. For example, Aragorn is born TA 2931, and goes out into the Wild at the age of 20 in 2951. His longer lifespan does not mean that he therefore spends more years as a toddler or teen. Same here for the mearas.
Second, while the issues you bring up are important, you also have to realize that Sauron wouldn't have started with a such a small herd either; increase the number of mares and stallions, and all conditions being average, your herd is going to grow rather quickly, not slowly. Third, your what ifs can easily be answered with more what ifs: what if every mare had twins that grw to adulthood? what if the presence of the nazgul was trained into them so that it spurred growth? what if there were black rohirrim and wide lands around nurnen?


Quote:
Yes, IMHO it is. I believe Nurnen is not that good for horses: "great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Nśrnen". So no running free across wide plains or green grass.
I think you're over reading it here. The presence of slave worked fields does not mean that there were no grasslands; all deep waters are dark. Remember that there are slave worked fields around Isengard yet the horses have no difficulty in running or trotting to or around it.


Quote:
Another more or less pertinent quote: : Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror" (of the Morgul Lord)
This isn't pertinent at all.


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So you say that Rohan kings would not want to have all their Riders on Mearas just because of silly pride? That seems a poor argument to me.
It isn't silly pride; its the pecking order. How do you know who is king? He's the one with the best chair in the house, with the best horse, the best armor, the best....read the literature Tolkien read, read some history, and then tell us that this is silly.

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Yes I still believe that Sauron was not fully prepared for the war, he started earlier than he wanted. There are a few quotes to support this.
Yes, but look at what he had prepared, as I've noted in a previous post. He may have struck sooner than he wanted, but he hadn't been sitting on his arse playing cards with the 9 (10 handed poker?) As San and Frodo see in The Land of Shadow ..." that Sauron had long prepared for this war. Usually a person planning war makes sure that the generals and war leaders have access and can command. While he struck earlier than intended, he was still far more prepared than Gondor.


Quote:
What had the nazgul been used for? Not as errand-boys for sure. Yes, Khamul+1 or 2 were transferred to Dol Guldur. One of them was a messenger circulating between DG and Mordor. This one may have had a spare steed. The rest remained in Minas Morgul.
And, yes, Sauron had time but probably he lacked the means.
So he has the means to amass armies with cavalry units, but not the means to produce horses to carry the nine? Seems questionable to me.

Quote:
I am afraid you have missed my point entirely. I have never questioned the nazgul ability to interact with the physical world. The nazgul cannot be compared to jockeys not because they are "spiritual" and jockeys are "matherial" but because (unlike jockeys) the nazgul inspire supernatural fear to normal living creatures (geese, horses, dogs and men).

Then you missed TD's point. When you said "Good point" and agreed with him a few messages back, the part you quoted from TD's message was this: "Also I don't really think you can compare jockeys to Nazgūl. Nazgūl were different to others, as their presence was in the spritual world, and as far as I'm aware that isn't true with jockeys." It seems to me that TD is in fact questioning that very notion. And you did say in reply to this: "Good Point!"

The fear factor (sorry, couldn't resist) has already been addressed. These horses were specifically bred for the Nazgul. We can speculate on how that might be accomplished, but to me that fact trumps concerns about fear.

Quote:
I am aware of several possible conclusions. Let us look at them. In this case (speed of nazgul horses vs. Shadowfax) you suggest three:
1. the horses are mearas 2.blunder by Tolkien 3. sorcery.
My primary conclusion was "they were outstanding horses, possibly mearas".
I don't like No.2, sorry. I believe that there must be some constant singposts of the story so I never question the entries in the Tale of Years. I think nobody does, even Olmer with his challenging theories .
I think you've misunderstood the point. We know from the Letters and other sources that Tolkien spent time after the first edition correcting errors and fixing the chronology and such things. And even yet there are some things that need fixing: such as the statement that X is the oldest living thing in Middle Earth--well they can't both be the oldest living thing, for example. So here I'm merely suggesting that Tolkien didn't stop and consider that he had the 9 riding the same distance as Gandalf in the same amount of time especially since he was more interested in making sure the dates and events all meshed.

Quote:
3. Sorcery? Seems unlikely to me. Of course, the Witch-King was a powerful sorcerer, but hardly surpassed Gandalf. Gandalf was a maia and a magician but still he had to use physical means - a swift horse - to get from Rohan to the Shire in a great hurry. Were sorcery helpful, he could have taken any horse and made it run as fast as Shadowfax.
Perhaps, but I doubt it, not because I question Gandalf's ability, but his heart. To do such a thing would be to change and twist the nature of the horse for his own purposes, and Sauron-like thing to do. I doubt very much Gandalf would do such a thing, whereas the WK (Phred) would do so in imitation of his master and in his haste.


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You think they were white horses?
Doesn't matter: white, purple with pink polka dots, they were CLAD in black, the text does not say they were black.


Quote:
BTW in the quote it is not said explicitly that the Witch-King's horse was black. But it was, as we know from other sources.
Sure, which doesn't apply to the cavalry.

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He had no nazgul for sure.
Didn't say he did.
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Barlogs to my knowledge didn't ride horses .Orcs and trolls and dragons hardly did either .
Its an interesting race called Men, or had you forgotten that Morgoth, like Sauron afterward, corrupted men to his service too?
Quote:
Sauron in fair form could be as neutral to horses as wizards.
Supposition

Quote:
Then you can call lions and tigers working in a circus "perverted".
Regardless of whether I would or not, certain animal rights groups have done just that, and zoos too.
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Old 05-18-2005, 09:51 AM   #48
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Hi, Forkbeard, "diametrically opposed" to me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forkbeard
Several points on this paragraph. First, like Numenoreans, the longevity of the mearas life span doesn't mean that their growth is likewise slowed. For example, Aragorn is born TA 2931, and goes out into the Wild at the age of 20 in 2951. His longer lifespan does not mean that he therefore spends more years as a toddler or teen. Same here for the mearas.
Second, while the issues you bring up are important, you also have to realize that Sauron wouldn't have started with a such a small herd either; increase the number of mares and stallions, and all conditions being average, your herd is going to grow rather quickly, not slowly. Third, your what ifs can easily be answered with more what ifs: what if every mare had twins that grw to adulthood? what if the presence of the nazgul was trained into them so that it spurred growth? what if there were black rohirrim and wide lands around nurnen?
Yes, the growth of both Numenoreans and elves is not slowed because of the greater lifespan. BUT the Numenorean kings (lifespan=400) had children when they were about 110-180 years old (UT), not when they were 20-40. Archedain chieftains (lifespan around 170-200) had children at about 60-70, as far as one can calculate. The elves had children… well not at 20-40 . The same may be true for horses.
Anyway, I believe it is wrong to extrapolate ordinary horse population dynamics to the noble mearas, especially to "perverted" Mearas. (as wrong as to extrapolate human population dynamics to Elves). Isn't it better to admit that it is totally unknown to us?

I leave out the question about Rohans king's "pecking order" but you have not convinced me at all that the Kings would not want all the Rohan horses to be Mearas, if it were possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forkbeard
Usually a person planning war makes sure that the generals and war leaders have access and can command. While he struck earlier than intended, he was still far more prepared than Gondor.
Sauron had the Fellbeast program underway for the war, though it seems to me that even that program was far from complete. The beasts were still too vulnerable with their long necks and unprotected bodies. I believe he had to "work" on them a bit longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forkbeard
So he has the means to amass armies with cavalry units, but not the means to produce horses to carry the nine? Seems questionable to me.
Yes, if practically any horse could be trained to carry a nazgul and no, if such horses were the rarest exception. We don't know that, that is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forkbeard
Then you missed TD's point. When you said "Good point" and agreed with him a few messages back, the part you quoted from TD's message was this: "Also I don't really think you can compare jockeys to Nazgūl. Nazgūl were different to others, as their presence was in the spritual world, and as far as I'm aware that isn't true with jockeys." It seems to me that TD is in fact questioning that very notion. And you did say in reply to this: "Good Point!" .
I interpreted this as : "they were very different from other humans including jockeys as their presence in the spritual world -their dark fea - caused fear in animals"
Better we ask TD what he meant, but I doubt that TD could question nazgul ability to interact with horses in physical world"
What did you mean, Telcontar Dunedain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forkbeard
The fear factor (sorry, couldn't resist) has already been addressed. These horses were specifically bred for the Nazgul. We can speculate on how that might be accomplished, but to me that fact trumps concerns about fear.
So you believe the animals were genetically perverted so that they would not be afraid of the nazgul even at the first encounter? I believe more in the training of the young colts by nazgul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forkbeard
So here I'm merely suggesting that Tolkien didn't stop and consider that he had the 9 riding the same distance as Gandalf in the same amount of time especially since he was more interested in making sure the dates and events all meshed.
. There may be some blunders that Tolkien failed to correct but I don't think it was one of them:
1. Even in the drafts of the text describing Gandalf's ride from Rohan to the Shire Tolkien described the nazgul horses as very swift, but not as swift as Shadowfax."…and I name him Grayfax. Not even the Chief of the Nine could go with such tireless speed" The Treason of Isengard, chapter VI). So at least the WK horse was reputed for its speed. I have already posted similar quotes from LOTR.
2.According to Christofer Tolkien, the Hunt for the Ring in UT was written before the Tale of Years has been published. In UT the nazgul took three days, not four, from Isen to Sarn Ford, arriving there at night of 21-22. That was corrected in the Tale of Tears to nazgul reaching SF at evening 22. So Tolkien did think on these dates.
3. The dates given in the Tale of Years allow the nazgul horses to be up to 35 hours behind Shadowfax in the Isen-Sarn Ford race. Gandalf may have crossed the Isen in the evening of 24 and Sarn Ford in the morning of 28 (about 80 hours). Nazgul may have crossed the Isen in the morning of 18 and it is specified that the nazgul came to Sarn Ford by evening 22 (about 115 hours). So it corresponds well with the notion of nazgul horses being very swift, but not so swift as Shadowfax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forkbeard
Its an interesting race called Men, or had you forgotten that Morgoth, like Sauron afterward, corrupted men to his service too?
Nay, I have not forgotten men . But evil men do not frighten horses and animals. Hitler walked the streets without dogs barking and geese screaming at him. A horse is not that interested in the views of his master and whether he worships Valar or Morgoth, provided he is kind to his horse. Nazgul frighten horses not because they are evil, but because they are supernaturally evil and no men anymore, but wraiths. Have you evidence that Morgoth has supernaturally corrupted any man in his service?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forkbeard
"Sauron in fair form could be as neutral to horses as wizards". Supposition.
Forkbeard, I must respectfully point out that whenever someone writes "could be" and not "was" he is expressing a supposition.
But this supposition is well founded, IMO. Remember Annatar in Eregion. He could hardly pass for a good maia, faithful pupil of Aule, if geese screemed at him and horses and dogs blindly ran away, could he?

Re:"perverted". You may call circus lions whatever you like, I only wanted to say that the Mouth's horse looked /how do I word it now?/ MORE PERVERTED than the nazgul steeds.

Regards,
Gordis

Last edited by Gordis : 05-18-2005 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 05-18-2005, 11:25 AM   #49
Telcontar_Dunedain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordis
Me neither. Probably we should check the Sil. As far as I remember the Noldor came from Valinor without horses (?). Then the elven horses came from ME. And what is the nobler horse line in ME than the descendents of Orome's steed? So the elven horses may be related to mearas.
Actually it says (somewhere, I'm not sure where) that horses were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros as gifts.

Quote:
I interpreted this as : "they were very different from other humans including jockeys as their presence in the spritual world -their dark fea - caused fear in animals"
Better we ask TD what he meant, but I doubt that TD could question nazgul ability to interact with horses in physical world"
What did you mean, Telcontar Dunedain?
I meant that the horses of the Nazgūl, because of their presence in the spiritual, not physical world. It says in UT that they (the Nazgūl) inspired fear into everything they passed. Jockeys, however are normal people, and thir presence is almost exacly the same as a trainers would be.
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Old 05-18-2005, 01:04 PM   #50
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Thanks, TD, for clarification.
And YES, you are right about elven horses. I have found the quote:
Quote:
To Fingon was assigned Dor-lómin, that lay to the west of the Mountains of Mithrim. But their chief fortress was at Eithel Sirion in the east of Ered Wethrin, whence they kept watch upon Ard-galen; and their cavalry rode upon that plain even to the shadow of Thangorodrim, for from few their horses had increased swiftly, and the grass of Ard-galen was rich and green. Of those horses many of the sires came from Valinor, and they were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros in atonement of his losses, for they had been carried by ship to Losgar.
So Asfaloth probably had valinorean origin. That proves BTW that not all good horses are mearas .
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Old 05-18-2005, 04:43 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordis

So Asfaloth probably had valinorean origin. That proves BTW that not all good horses are mearas .

You suggest Gordis that they were Naughty?

(just some light relief from the unexpected inquisition-style grilling!)

Knifemoustache i name you ...


Interesting posts Forkbeard - you do ...er.. seem a little anti-anything-Gordis says?

(course she's wrong about most things regarding theses horsies! )
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:37 PM   #52
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Pt I

Quote:
Originally Posted by gordis
Hi, Forkbeard, "diametrically opposed" to me!



Yes, the growth of both Numenoreans and elves is not slowed because of the greater lifespan. BUT the Numenorean kings (lifespan=400) had children when they were about 110-180 years old (UT), not when they were 20-40. Archedain chieftains (lifespan around 170-200) had children at about 60-70, as far as one can calculate. The elves had children… well not at 20-40 .
But this is social custom, not biological function. They were CAPABLE of having children, but didn't.

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The same may be true for horses.
Horses, even mearas, respond to nature's call, particularly when bred, and don't really have social mores to be concerned with.

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Anyway, I believe it is wrong to extrapolate ordinary horse population dynamics to the noble mearas, especially to "perverted" Mearas.
Why? Because it disproves your theory? And this is circular, you have yet to establish that in reference to the Nazgul we are talking about mearas: that is, you have taken your conclusion and made it part of the argument--classic case of circular argument.


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(as wrong as to extrapolate human population dynamics to Elves). Isn't it better to admit that it is totally unknown to us?
Isn't it better yet to admit that your argument that Sauron would have had only one horse per Nazgul is extremely unlikely?

Quote:
I leave out the question about Rohans king's "pecking order" but you have not convinced me at all that the Kings would not want all the Rohan horses to be Mearas, if it were possible.
a) but you haven't left it out, you've instead said that it didn't exist
b) you've provided no evidence that the king wanted to have all the Rohirrim on mearas

What we do know, and we know only this, is that Eorl was the first to ride a mearas and that ever afterward a mearas bore the king or his sons, period.
Tradition and prestige are important in a warrior society like the Rohirrim, and that is very obvious in this case, I think, that only the descendants of Eorl ride a horse descended from Eorl's.

Quote:
Sauron had the Fellbeast program underway for the war, though it seems to me that even that program was far from complete. The beasts were still too vulnerable with their long necks and unprotected bodies. I believe he had to "work" on them a bit longer.
All beasts are vulnerable; the most invulnerable are dragons and we already know they have their weaknesses too. Horses drown in rivers and can be shot too. Besides, like the Nazgul themselves, the fell beasts were designed for terror and to help the Nazgul spread their psychological warfare as broadly across the battlefield as possible, not for battle. Even in battle however they had their uses, but standing one on one against a woman with a sword was not one of them.

In conclusion, regardless of how finished or unfinished the "program" was, it makes no difference whatsoever to how many horses Sauron had bred to carry his Nazgul. Given the great preparations for war over more than a half century, it is likely that Sauron thought of more than one horse to carry his most important and most trusted servants.

Quote:
Yes, if practically any horse could be trained to carry a nazgul and no, if such horses were the rarest exception. We don't know that, that is all.
So let me see if I have this correct: we can not entertain the idea that Sauron had more than one steed, mearas or not, for his most trusted servants because we don't know how rare such beasts were but we can entertain the idea that each Nazgul only had one horse because we don't know how rare such beasts are? Is that about the size of it?

Besides, Tolkien tells us that the horses carrying the Nazgul were specifically BRED, not trained, BRED to carry a Nazgul.

Quote:
I interpreted this as : "they were very different from other humans including jockeys as their presence in the spritual world -their dark fea - caused fear in animals"
Better we ask TD what he meant, but I doubt that TD could question nazgul ability to interact with horses in physical world"
What did you mean, Telcontar Dunedain?
I'm not sure that this helps or that TD made it any clearer. In any case, I don't find the point particularly difficult to my position: the horses in question were BRED to carry the Nazgul, it doesn't take a Nazgul bottle feeding the foal and working hours upon hours for it to not be fearful.

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So you believe the animals were genetically perverted so that they would not be afraid of the nazgul even at the first encounter?
No. I believe that Tolkien said that the horses were bred specifically to bear the Nazgul, their raison d'etre was to carry Nazgul. Whether Tolkien had in mind genetic engineering, socerty, something in the feed and water, or a Wose drum beat and blessing at conception I don't know; I do know that he conceived of the horses of the Nazgul as specifically bred (something done on purpose) to carry the Nazgul which suggests that Sauron had some way to overcome the fear that Nazgul normally caused in animals.



Quote:
. There may be some blunders that Tolkien failed to correct but I don't think it was one of them:
1. Even in the drafts of the text describing Gandalf's ride from Rohan to the Shire Tolkien described the nazgul horses as very swift, but not as swift as Shadowfax."…and I name him Grayfax. Not even the Chief of the Nine could go with such tireless speed"
Thank you for proving my point. If even the Chief of the NIne could not go at such a pace, BUT IN POINT OF FACT ACCORDING TO THE TALE OF YEARS DID GO AT SUCH A PACE, it illustrates that Tolkien hadn't fully considered the implications in this instance.

Quote:
2.According to Christofer Tolkien, the Hunt for the Ring in UT was written before the Tale of Years has been published. In UT the nazgul took three days, not four, from Isen to Sarn Ford, arriving there at night of 21-22. That was corrected in the Tale of Tears to nazgul reaching SF at evening 22. So Tolkien did think on these dates.
I can't find this, but I'll take your word for it. If he gave as detailed thought to the dates as you say, then why does he nowhere mention the fact that the Nazgul are riding mearas, it would seem to be a rather necessary point to explain the speed of the Nine.

Quote:
3. The dates given in the Tale of Years allow the nazgul horses to be up to 35 hours behind Shadowfax in the Isen-Sarn Ford race. Gandalf may have crossed the Isen in the evening of 24 and Sarn Ford in the morning of 28 (about 80 hours). Nazgul may have crossed the Isen in the morning of 18 and it is specified that the nazgul came to Sarn Ford by evening 22 (about 115 hours). So it corresponds well with the notion of nazgul horses being very swift, but not so swift as Shadowfax.
Then you've just resolved the issue. 35 hours is a lot of hours to the sleepless, and we no longer need posit mearas as their steeds.

I will point out another aspect of distance and speed. According to UT, Gandalf traveled 800 miles from Thranduil to Frodo in 15 days. But in the tale of years it takes him 10 days to go from Bree to Isengard, less than 600 miles. In both cases he is in haste. Again, I'd say that he didn't consider the full implications.

There is also the fact that somehow the Nazgul are negatively affected by water and are stopped by water, yet at the same time cross the fords of two large rivers without pause or mishap. CT notes that even Tolkien felt this hard to sustain. But there it is, in the books staring us in the face.

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Nay, I have not forgotten men . But evil men do not frighten horses and animals.
That actually has not been my experience.
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:39 PM   #53
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Pt II

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A horse is not that interested in the views of his master and whether he worships Valar or Morgoth, provided he is kind to his horse.
But we aren't talking about the Nazgul's political views or religion.


Quote:
Nazgul frighten horses not because they are evil, but because they are supernaturally evil and no men anymore, but wraiths. Have you evidence that Morgoth has supernaturally corrupted any man in his service?
Perhaps not, but the point was in the beginning that Sauron's horses could be descended from horses that Morgoth used, in short horses that for generations had been in the service of evil and so therefore more welcoming to the presence of the Nazgul.

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Forkbeard, I must respectfully point out that whenever someone writes "could be" and not "was" he is expressing a supposition.
Point taken.

Quote:
But this supposition is well founded, IMO. Remember Annatar in Eregion. He could hardly pass for a good maia, faithful pupil of Aule, if geese screemed at him and horses and dogs blindly ran away, could he?
Assuming that elves kept geese and dogs.....and we actually don't have the reaction of animals to Sauron personally described anywhere do we?

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Re:"perverted". You may call circus lions whatever you like, I only wanted to say that the Mouth's horse looked /how do I word it now?/ MORE PERVERTED than the nazgul steeds.
Here is my statement that started the whole "perversion" discussion:
"This is a very real possibility, that Sauron, even perhaps Morgoth, had captured some of the Mearas and perverted them to his purposes and to carry his servants. It is entirely possible that we are talking about a long term, age long program of Sauron's to provide horses for his troops, particularly his generals."
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:41 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterbeer
Interesting posts Forkbeard - you do ...er.. seem a little anti-anything-Gordis says?

(course she's wrong about most things regarding theses horsies! )
Nope, just those horsies.

And it could be turned around....Gordis seems a little anti-anything-Forkbeard says.. I know she's not though

Last edited by Forkbeard : 05-20-2005 at 01:09 AM.
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Old 05-19-2005, 06:44 PM   #55
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well i must say Forkbeard you argue your case both intelligently and with incisiveness.

I think Gordis has, to a degree, been drawn-in by the cut and thrust of this debate beyond perhaps her original position? (which i understood to be a loose supposition in origin) but either way respect to the pair of you for the duel! : i do suspect in general Gordis is now attempting to defend a pretty shaky position, inspired more than anything by the quality - and thereby, the challenge - of the debate than her original starting point!

Partly though this is why i have a lot of respect for Gordis:

a) the posing and genuine desire to examine new ideas and hypothetical questions

b) the ability and intelligence and knowledge to debate them

c) But mainly (and personally) gordis's excellent sense of humour and skill at decriptive writing!


So: (couldn't resist ) what do you think on the IF (hypothetical) question of the WK and if he mastered the One ring debate?


Best to both protagonists,
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Old 05-20-2005, 10:44 AM   #56
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I am new to this thread and actually to this forum so dont kill me outright.
I dont understand why the horsies cannot be mearas? I think Gordi proved it allright.
And I think Forkbeard could use more sense of humour...
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Old 05-20-2005, 12:41 PM   #57
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Yeah, I neither see way the horses can't be mearas.. I think Gordis proved it with that speedcalculation.
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Old 05-20-2005, 03:00 PM   #58
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Gollum

Word!! Been following this debate for a couple days and now it seems the shelling has stopped, I gotta echo the ops of you two above and say same: why CAN'T the Nazgul's horses be mearas? What's the big deal?
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Old 05-20-2005, 06:47 PM   #59
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Yes, Lotesse is right, now the shelling has stopped , and I want to explain why.

I was starting to write a fourth or fifth reply to Mr. Forkbeard, but then I had to stop as I felt incredibly bored and what is worse felt that any sense of humor I might have possessed was leaving me . So I decided to stop it.

Thanks, Butterbeer, for your compliments.
I thank Crazy Squirrel, Pitt and Lotesse for support (Valar know I needed it here!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterbeer
I think Gordis has, to a degree, been drawn-in by the cut and thrust of this debate beyond perhaps her original position? (which i understood to be a loose supposition in origin) but either way respect to the pair of you for the duel! : i do suspect in general Gordis is now attempting to defend a pretty shaky position, inspired more than anything by the quality - and thereby, the challenge - of the debate than her original starting point!
You are right that my POV was a loose supposition in origin: I have made a connection between the number of dead horses found after the flood (8) and the number of horses seen afterwards (1) and explored a possibility of it NOT being a coincidence. But I disagree that I attempted to defend a "shaky" position about horses being mearas. Or at least to be as swift as mearas.

As in "the cut and thrust of this debate" my POV has become somewhat obscured I decided to summarize it again below:

My POV

1. Nazgul horses are very swift

a.Tolkien has not made a blunder in the Tale of Years. Both the Nazgul and Shadowfax took roughly 4 days (min 74, max 118 hours for Gandalf; min 92 max 118 for the nazgul) from the Fords of Isen to the Sarn Ford.

b. In another 2-days race Bree - Weathertop the same participants have shown similar results. And in this case the results could be assessed with more precision
Quote:
"So I stayed in Bree that night, wondering much what had become of the Riders; for only of two had there yet been any news in Bree, it seemed. But in the night we heard more. Five at least came from the west, and they threw down the gates and passed through Bree like a howling wind; and the Bree-folk are still shivering and expecting the end of the world. I got up before dawn and went after them...
I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree-and they were there before me"
Nazgul: passed Bree at night
Gandalf left Bree at first light
Both reached Weathertop on the evening of the second day the nazgul before Gandalf
So Nazgul: +- 48 hours
Gandalf +- 42 hours

c.That estimation corresponds to evidence, supported by several quotes, that Tolkien believed Nazgul horses to be very swift but not so swift as Shadowfax.

2. Nazgul horses are likely to be Mearas, as in Rohan there were

a. ordinary horses
b. Mearas (descended from Felarof horse of Eorl). Mearas were very rare, only Rohan king's line had the right to ride them.
c. Shadowfax - the Lord of horses, a special case " And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world".

The Lord of the horses leaves all ordinary horses for dead and IS swifter than his kin the ordinary mearas. Seems convincing to me.

However, there is a possibility that they come from entirely different bloodline (i.e. Valinorean elven horses or some other) but it seems less likely.

That's about the size of it.
Gordis

Last edited by Gordis : 05-20-2005 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 05-21-2005, 02:18 PM   #60
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I agree (for once ) with you on all points, gordis.
It also brings up the question, Would the Valinorean horses be swifter than Mearas?
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