Men free from fate?

[CAB]

I was going to post this question on the philosophy thread, but they seem to have quite a lively discussion going on there now, so…

It is said that Men are free from fate, but all of the other inhabitants of Arda are not. How could this be possible? I don't see how beings (or for that matter, even inanimate objects) who are bound by fate could exist as such among people who are not.

For example, say a particular Elf is fated to shake a certain Man's hand at a certain place and time. If things work out this way, then wasn't the Man just as fated as the Elf? On the other hand what if the Man decides not to be at this certain place at the certain time? How can the Elf then do what he is fated to do?

Another example, this time not involving any direct contact between fated and unfated people: What if a Dwarf was fated to pick up a particular rock one day, but some uncooperative Man had come by a week earlier and thrown it in a lake? The Dwarf's and rock's supposed fates couldn't happen.

Was Tolkien's world containing fated and unfated beings impossible or am I missing something?

[brownjenkins]

I think he was referring to the future ages, when man would become the dominant force in Arda, with all other races either disappearing or heading to Valinor.

The first three ages seem to have been planned out, more or less, by Eru from day zero, with the later ages being controlled by mankind, for better or worse. I suppose you could think of them as a schooling period, and they graduated and went out on their own post-Third Age.

[Olmer]

Could you provide a quote?
I would go along with "Men are bound by fate", but free from it...
Is it exact Tolkien's words? Seems everything in his (and correspondingly in ours) world have been predestinated by the " Primal Chorus" up to the time when the subsequent choir will sing up "a Great Predestination Plan" for another millenias to come.
But then again Tolkien was very "contrasistent", as it has been put by Carpenter, especially in his late years...

In my understanding the fate of the world and of the Eruhini has been weaven by Ainur into the music in two different ways, thanks to Melkor's "discord". Thus it was not one predestined way, but two.So there was a Choice created by Melkor.
In another words the Men are "free from fate" because they have options to pick up.

[CAB]

Here are two quotes sir. Both come from "Of the Beginning of Days" in the Silmarillion

'But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else...

It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive…

I must humbly disagree with Mr. brownjenkins (though his explanation would solve the dilemma) since, as the second quote makes very clear, this freedom from fate is part of the very nature of Men, and so isn't attached to a time, but to a race.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Man's freedom to break the fate of the music of the Ainur was likley a prime reason for Eru creating them.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by CAB

I must humbly disagree with Mr. brownjenkins (though his explanation would solve the dilemma) since, as the second quote makes very clear, this freedom from fate is part of the very nature of Men, and so isn't attached to a time, but to a race.

No worries. I meant it more in the sense that in the early ages they were interacting with beings that were bound by fate. Thus, while there was a certain degree of freedom their environment, dominated by elves and others, dictated a lot of their actions. Once these influences faded, their fate was completely their own.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I believe the key contribution of Beren in thw War of the Jewels was an example of a human breaking the fate of the music of the Ainur. Indeed the name given the story Lay of Lethian, Release from Bondage, is a recognition of this.

[Curufin]

CAB, have you read Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth in HoME X?

There is a long discussion there of the fate of men versus the fate of elves, and the place of both in Arda Remade...

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Curufin

CAB, have you read Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth in HoME X?

I have several years ago. It has been quite a while since I looked at any of the HoME books. I don't think it addresses the umm…"practical" problems I was trying to question in this thread, but I could be wrong. I will have to go by the library and read this one again.

[Jon S.]

Assuming quantum mechanics held in ME as it does in our Universe I cannot ascribe determinism even to the Elves. At best, it seems to me that the range of motion, so to speak, of the Elves was relatively more circumscribed than that of men in some aspects just as a person with only a bicycle cannot travel where a person with a submarine may venture yet, within their respective fields of travel, each is equally subject to stochastic processes.