Some Questions Regarding States/Provinces

[Dark Lord Sauron]

Hello again. In my ever-ongoing quest to conquer Middle Earth and liberate the oppressed subjects of the Men and Elvish kingdoms, I have to keep up to date with all of the events going on in the area. I have therefore created this thread with the intent on having questions answered. Questions regarding regions of Middle Earth from Lindon in the west all the way to the Iron Hills in the east.

Lindon and the Blue Mountains: Lindon seems like a secure area of Middle Earth in the Third Age. However, in the Blue Mountains of Lindon there seem to be several Dwarvish city-states. For starters, what were some of these specific states? What was their relation with Lindon; were they vassals of Lindon, did they have some sort of military agreement, etc. How old were these city-states? When was the date of their last founding (e.g. if a city-state had earlier been destroyed in war and was then rebuilt). Were these city states allied or politically united?

Numeriador: This political establishment seems to be located between Lindon and Arthedain. What the heck was it?

Eregion: Eregion and Ost-in-Edhil were both destroyed during the Second Age. However, I believe, if only by simple human migratory patterns, that this area could not have been completely deserted all the way up to III 3019. Who reoccupied this region by the time of the War of the Ring?

Angmar and Mount Gram: After III 1975 both Angmar and Carn-Dum were nonentities. This left Mount Gram as the largest political and civilized establishment north of Rhudaur. Mount Gram obviously became an important Orc-base. My question is, was Mount Gram closer to the concept of a city-state, where they controlled little outside of the mountain, or was it a state, where it controlled most of the former realm of Angmar? Also, did Mount Gram control any of the former kingdom of Arnor, such as northern Rhudaur? When was it destroyed, if it ever was?

The Lossoth: Rather simple question: Aside from transporting the last king of Arthedain to safety, or attempting to, were the Lossoth ever involved in the wars between Angmar and Arthedain, by taking either side?

Gundabad: This seems to be the Orkish capital of the north; however that alone raises some questions. As "capital", did it influence at all any of the other Orkish political establishments, such as Mount Gram or Moria? Or was it simply the largest Orkish city in the north? When was it destroyed, if it ever was?

Dunland: Several people outside this forum has said Dunland was territorily part of Rohan. This strikes me as odd for two reasons: (1) The appendix in Return of the King never mentioned Dunland being transferred to Rohan from Gondor, and (2) It doesn't border Rohan. What was its actual relationship with Rohan, and did Isengard ever exert any political control over it?

Anduin Vales: Was there any political entity here? Did it exist at the time of the War of the Ring?

The Misty Mountains: What were all the individual Dwarfish city-states in the Misty Mountains? At what dates were these city-states destroyed by Orcs? What were all the individual Orkish states? Were they destroyed, and at what dates?

Umbar: What was Umbar's relationship with the Harad after its conquest in circa 1856? Did they pay tributes, or did the Harad basically give the Corsairs a blank state and grant them full independence? Was Umbar still Dunedain culture by III 3019?

Gondor and Dol Amroth:Gondor seems to have had a massive decentralization effort in the middle of the Third Age. This resulted in the granting of Calenhardhon to Rohan, the independence of Dol Amroth, and the creation of several fiefs, such as Lossarnach, Lebennin, and Dor-en-Ernhil. Dor-en-Ernhil seemed to be owned by the Prince of Dol Amroth. Would this make the Prince a vassal of Gondor? Would this explain his status as "Prince" and not "King"? Dor-en-Ernhil seemed to be a part of Belfalas; where did one end and the other begin?

As for the other fiefs, did they generally honor typical feudal contracts by responding to calls of war, paying tributes, etc? Or did they have their rebellous periods, perhaps once the line of kings died out?

Dagorlad: Tolkien indicates that as part of the decentralizing effort in Gondor, its Eastern territories were abandoned. I have always believed that this included Dagorlad. In this case, did Mordor occupy and begin administering Dagorlad? Or did it fall into the hands of Easterlings? Or did the people who had lived there before under Gondor's control simply rule themselves?

Mirkwood: Thranduil obviously ruled northern Mirkwood, and Sauron ruled southern Mirkwood, up to Dol Guldur. What about the rest of Mirkwood? Was there a political entity there, or were there several? Some have told me that Mirkwood was split into four, but I have no idea about the political boundries nor backgrounds of the other two. Were there any major cities in the middle of Mirkwood, outside the control of Thranduil and Mordor? Who controlled the region around Dol Guldur prior to Sauron's occupying it?

Rhovanian: Who lived here?

The Iron Hills: Obviously the Dwarf state was formed following the destruction of the Dwarfish kingdom in the Gray Mountains. Did this state survive all the way up to the War of the Ring? Was Dain II ruler of this area, or did he leave someone else to rule it instead? Did the area of rule extend over the entire mountain area, or only in a certain area, like a city-state?


These are but a few of the questions I have. Please answer as many as possible!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Lindon and the Blue Mountains: The Dwarves often traded with the elves of the area.

Eregion: The dunlendings could have occupied this area, but didn't, it was left deserted after the destruction of elvish civilisation at hollin

Gundabad: This was originally a Dwarven realm, the awakening point of Durin Longbeard, this was the main reason for the feud between dwarves and orcs(RE: The Hobbit). Mt Gundabad was never destroyed.

Dunland: Dunland would originally have been part of the old territory of Gondor, with the Dunlendings occupying the area there was enver any political influence after the coming of the Rohirrim. At the WotR, Saruman exerted influence over the dunlendings, inciting them to attack the Rohirrim. (the dunlendings at one point occupied Isengard, until the coming of Saruman)

Anduin Vales: Can you be more specific, the Vales of Anduin covers a rather large area. Northern Vales were woodmen and Beornings, lower down were the Gladden Fields (smeagol's People, the Stoors) further lower you have Lothlorien, Then you come to the Wold of Rohan, even urther you have Anorien; Ithilien and Lebennin in Gondor.

The Misty Mountains: The only Dwarven Realm was that of Dwarrowdelf/Moria, which was taken by the Orcs. The Orcs also had an area further to the North (RE: The Hobbit)

Umbar: Umbar was a state ruled by Black Numenoreans, such as was the Mouth of Sauron (your trusted servant ) It is never stated that Umbar rulaed or governed Harad, but that is what is implied.

Gondor and Dol Amroth:It was never stated Dol Amroth was independent, more a province of Gondor, governed over by Denethor's Kinsman, Prince Imrahil. The various provinces I do not take to be indepenmdent, more internal regions (similar to States of America, Counties of England etc)

Dagorlad: It is never stated that Dagorlad was a territory of Gondor more just a vast expanse of land to the North of Mordor, where there was a battle.

Rhovanian: Rhovanion is basically Mirkwood, and the Upper vales of Anduin, with Land around, such as was the Brown Lands. If you are speaking of a culture of Rhovanion, you can take this to mean the North Men (in kin to the Rohirrim) such as were the Woodmen and the men of Dale and those of Esgaroth.

The Iron Hills: This state survived as the main dwarvish kingdom, when the dwarves retook Erebor from Smaug I assume they held both as one Kingdom, with Erebor being the 'capital', for want of a better word.

I hope i have helped in some way.
I am sure Valandil will jump in somewhere, and give full details of all of these, as he has a much greater knowledge, especially of the Appendices.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

I hope i have helped in some way.
I am sure Valandil will jump in somewhere, and give full details of all of these, as he has a much greater knowledge, especially of the Appendices.

Likely will with a bit more time. About to be swept up in the maelstrom of today's cook-out!

Meanwhile, you did just fine Chrys... and there are certainly more expert voices than my own around.

[Radagast The Brown]

I think Chrys answered on most of your questions... and most of those he can't, niether can I.

But anway:
The Lossoth didn't take sides in the war. They were afraid of the Witchking and of weapons generally, and didn't take part in the wars of Middle Earth.

I don't think the orcs had much influence, they recieved orders from Mordor or Saruman. They do things from their own ideas as well - but the more important comes from Mordor. I also think that if Gundabad had influence, we would hjave heard about in in LotR, and its name doesn't appear in the books.

About the Misty Mountains - Moria was destroyed at 1980 TA, the Orcs started to build secret strongholds at 2480 TA.

About Rhovanion - it is said in the Appendix that the Kings of Gondor (I think it's either Minalcar or Narmacil) gave the 'Northmen' the lands between Mirkwood and south, 'The Brown Lands', to be a defence against the men of the East.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
Eregion: The dunlendings could have occupied this area, but didn't, it was left deserted after the destruction of elvish civilisation at hollin

Elves travelled through the region and it may be that Wandering Companies continued to spend time there during the Third Age.

Gundabad: This was originally a Dwarven realm, the awakening point of Durin Longbeard, this was the main reason for the feud between dwarves and orcs(RE: The Hobbit). Mt Gundabad was never destroyed.

While Gundabad was the place where Durin is said to have awakened in the essay "Dwarves and Men", it was not one of the seven Dwarf realms. It was used by all the Dwarves as a sort of inter-kingdom locus point.

Dunland: Dunland would originally have been part of the old territory of Gondor, with the Dunlendings occupying the area there was never any political influence after the coming of the Rohirrim...

Dunlan originally lay beyond Gondor's borders. There is no indication that Gondor ever successfully subdued the Dunlendings. The fortresses at Angrenost, Aglarond, and Tharbad were apparently built to defend Gondor and Arnor against raids by the Dunlendings.

...At the WotR, Saruman exerted influence over the dunlendings, inciting them to attack the Rohirrim. (the dunlendings at one point occupied Isengard, until the coming of Saruman)

The Dunlendings occupied Isengard (Angrenost) before Saruman settled there, and he did not arrive there until after the Rohirrim had recaptured the fortress.

The Misty Mountains: The only Dwarven Realm was that of Dwarrowdelf/Moria, which was taken by the Orcs. The Orcs also had an area further to the North (RE: The Hobbit)

"Dwarves and Men" says the Longbeard Dwarves claimed all of the Misty Mountains, the Grey Mountains, and the Iron Hills as their territory (among the Dwarves).

Umbar: Umbar was a state ruled by Black Numenoreans, such as was the Mouth of Sauron (your trusted servant ) It is never stated that Umbar rulaed or governed Harad, but that is what is implied.

The Black Numenoreans of Umbar were allied with other lands across Harad. Some or all of those lands were former Numenorean colonies, too. The peoples were probably, as in Gondor and Arnor, a mixture of Numenoreans and native tribes.

Gondor and Dol Amroth:It was never stated Dol Amroth was independent, more a province of Gondor, governed over by Denethor's Kinsman, Prince Imrahil. The various provinces I do not take to be indepenmdent, more internal regions (similar to States of America, Counties of England etc)

Dol Amroth was a fortress or city, and appears to have been the seat of the Princes of Belfalas. Belfalas was one of five major provinces or fiefs of the original Gondor. After the end of the Line of Anarion, Belfalas became an autonomous region, acknowledging the titular leadership of the Ruling Stewards but not directly subject to their will.

It may be that the Princes of Belfalas were the last of several princely houses established by Elendil (or Isildur and Anarion). The other princely houses may have at one time ruled Lebennin and Calenardhon, but there is no direct evidence that anything like that occurred.

Dagorlad: It is never stated that Dagorlad was a territory of Gondor more just a vast expanse of land to the North of Mordor, where there was a battle.

The region containing Dagorlad was conquered by the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age. Gondor retained control over these lands until the 20th century of the Third Age. King Turambar extended Gondor's influence even farther east sometime after TA 541.

Rhovanian: Rhovanion is basically Mirkwood, and the Upper vales of Anduin, with Land around, such as was the Brown Lands. If you are speaking of a culture of Rhovanion, you can take this to mean the North Men (in kin to the Rohirrim) such as were the Woodmen and the men of Dale and those of Esgaroth.

Tolkien applied the name "Rhovanion" to two regions. The more general use was equivalent to the Wilderland of The Hobbit, which consisted of all the lands east of the Misty Mountains. That would have excluded lands southeast of the Misty Mountains, such as Mordor.

The narrower, more specific use of the name was its application to the kingdom of Vidugavia, who called himself King of Rhovanion. He controled the lands between southern Mirkwood and the Celduin (the River Running in The Hobbit). His people cut so much timber from southeastern Mirkwood that they created the "East Bigt", the huge indentation in the forest shown on the maps.

The Iron Hills: This state survived as the main dwarvish kingdom, when the dwarves retook Erebor from Smaug I assume they held both as one Kingdom, with Erebor being the 'capital', for want of a better word.

The Iron Hills survived as the primary colony of the Longbeard Dwarves, who were only one of seven races of Dwarves. Dain did not entirely abandon the Iron Hills when he re-established the Kingdom under the Mountain at Erebor.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Do we have any indicia that the Firebeards or Broadbeams reestablished kindoms or major polities in the blue Mountains after the ruin of Belegost and Nogrod, as opposed to just scattered town size communities? We know that large numbers of them moved to Dwarrowdelf after the end of the first age.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
Lindon and the Blue Mountains: Lindon seems like a secure area of Middle Earth in the Third Age. However, in the Blue Mountains of Lindon there seem to be several Dwarvish city-states. For starters, what were some of these specific states?...

The ancient Dwarven cities were Belegost and Nogrod. Belegost was probably completely abandoned early in the Second Age (many, if not all, of its people migrated to Khazad-dum). Nogrod suffered tremendous losses but may have remained inhabited throughout the Second and Third Age.

...What was their relation with Lindon; were they vassals of Lindon, did they have some sort of military agreement, etc. How old were these city-states? When was the date of their last founding (e.g. if a city-state had earlier been destroyed in war and was then rebuilt). Were these city states allied or politically united?

The Dwarves of Ered Luin may have joined the Eldar in the wars against Angmar, at least the narrative in Appendix A indicates that Cirdan called upon the inhabitants of Lindon and Eriador to help defeat Angmar after Earnur arrived with Gondor's fleet in TA 1975.

It is unlikely the Dwarves of Ered Luin participated in the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" says few Dwarves fought on either side, but that the Longbeard Dwarves of Khazad-dum (Durin's Folk) joined the Last Alliance.

Numeriador: This political establishment seems to be located between Lindon and Arthedain. What the heck was it?

There is no such name in any of the published Tolkien texts. The Numenoreans founded colonies at Vinyalonde (later Lond Daer Ened), which stood at the mouth of the Gwathlo, and at Tharbad. Numenorean forts were also built along the river in preparation for the War of the Elves and Sauron. The Numenoreans also fortified the Baranduin and Lhun rivers in preparation for that war.

During the war, Sauron took Tharbad and forced his way into Eriador. He drove the Eldar and Numenoreans back from the Baranduin but they held the Lhun until reinforcements came from Numenor.

By the end of the Second Age, many Faithful Numenoreans had settled in the lands between the Lhun, the Gwathlo, and the Bruinen rivers. These lands (also occupied by many other Men) were gathered under Elendil's rule as King of Arnor.

Eregion: Eregion and Ost-in-Edhil were both destroyed during the Second Age. However, I believe, if only by simple human migratory patterns, that this area could not have been completely deserted all the way up to III 3019. Who reoccupied this region by the time of the War of the Ring?

In an abandoned historical narrative, Tolkien wrote that the Eldar convened a "white council" after the War of the Elves and Sauron at Elrond's fortress in Imladris (Rivendell). Elrond had retreated there with the army he had brought from Lindon and with many survivors from Eregion and Eriador (including both Elves and Men).

The council decided to keep Imladris as the chief Eldarin stronghold east of the Lhun. There is nothing in any other published text which contradicts this account.

Angmar and Mount Gram: After III 1975 both Angmar and Carn-Dum were nonentities. This left Mount Gram as the largest political and civilized establishment north of Rhudaur.

Mount Gram's location is unspecified. It is generally considered to be located somewhere in the Misty Mountains. Since it was an Orc stronghold later on in the Third Age (Circa. 2747), it does not seem likely to have been a "civilized establishment".

The Lossoth: Rather simple question: Aside from transporting the last king of Arthedain to safety, or attempting to, were the Lossoth ever involved in the wars between Angmar and Arthedain, by taking either side?

No.

Gundabad: This seems to be the Orkish capital of the north; however that alone raises some questions. As "capital", did it influence at all any of the other Orkish political establishments, such as Mount Gram or Moria? Or was it simply the largest Orkish city in the north? When was it destroyed, if it ever was?

The political organization of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains probably changed through the centuries. At the time of The Hobbit, Bolg of the North was probably the most powerful Orc leader in the Misty Mountains.

Dunland: Several people outside this forum has said Dunland was territorily part of Rohan...

In The Peoples of Middle-earth, it is said that Eomer was king of Rohan and Dunland in the Fourth Age. That would mean that Rohan took control of Dunland by right of victory after the War of the Ring. Rohan did not control Dunland prior to that time.

...(2) It doesn't border Rohan. What was its actual relationship with Rohan, and did Isengard ever exert any political control over it?

Technically, Rohan and Dunland do share a border where the Isen river flows west.

The Dunlendings were related to the Men of Ered Nimrais. One group of those men became the Dead Men of Dunharrow. Some clans continued to live in Calenardhon throughout the Third Age, until Cirion ceded Calenardhon to Eorl. Apparently, Gondor could not fully control the peoples living in the region. A Gondorian population at Aglarond (which the Rohirrim renamed Westfold Vale/the Hornburg) was then moved to Angrenost (Isengard), where a Gondorian chieftain/lord remained in control over the fortress.

The Rohirrim drove the Dunlendings over the Isen river and the Dunlendings gradually spread back into western Rohan, intermarrying with some Rohirric families. The close ties between western Rohan and Dunland continued throughout the rest of the Third Age.

Anduin Vales: Was there any political entity here? Did it exist at the time of the War of the Ring?

The Eotheod, ancestors of the Rohirrim, lived near Mirkwood just north of the Gladden Fields for about 100 years. They eventually moved north to the former lands of eastern Angmar (the region at the very far end of the Vale of Anduin).

The Woodmen of Mirkwod and the Beornings appear to be a major sub-group of the Northmen who settled throughout central Mirkwood, the lands west toward the Misty Mountains, and the adjoining foothills and valleys of the Misty Mountains.

Umbar: What was Umbar's relationship with the Harad after its conquest in circa 1856? Did they pay tributes, or did the Harad basically give the Corsairs a blank state and grant them full independence? Was Umbar still Dunedain culture by III 3019?

Gondor actually conquered Umbar in TA 933. Umbar was seized by rebels fleeing Gondor's civil war, the Kin-Strife, in 1448. Gondor destroyed Umbar in 1810. Sometime after that period, Umbar was reoccupied (possibly when the Wainriders attacked Gondor from both the east and the south in 1944). Umbar seems to have remained occupied continuously from that time forward, and the Corsairs are first mentioned as attacking Gondor during Cirion's rule (2489-2567).

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
Gondor and Dol Amroth:Gondor seems to have had a massive decentralization effort in the middle of the Third Age. This resulted in the granting of Calenhardhon to Rohan, the independence of Dol Amroth, and the creation of several fiefs, such as Lossarnach, Lebennin, and Dor-en-Ernhil. Dor-en-Ernhil seemed to be owned by the Prince of Dol Amroth. Would this make the Prince a vassal of Gondor? Would this explain his status as "Prince" and not "King"? Dor-en-Ernhil seemed to be a part of Belfalas; where did one end and the other begin?...

When Isildur and Anarion founded Gondor, it originally consisted of five regions: Belfalas, Lebennin, Anorien, Ithilien, and Calenardhon. The other regions to the west of Belfalas (and possibly to the north) were added by conquest centuries later.

A note attached to "Cirion and Eorl" says that Elendil originally bestowed the title of "prince" upon the ancestors of the Lords of Dol Amroth. Other evidence indicates that the Lords of Dol Amroth were the Princes of Belfalas. That same note says they were related to Elendil (but it does not say how).

The seven stars used in the royal emblem of the Kings of Arnor and Gondor are said to signify Elendil and his captains. If that is so, it may be that the six captains (not including Isildur and Anarion) who came to Middle-earth with Elendil became princes.

We know that Isildur and Anarion reached Pelargir with five ships. It is reasonable to guess that the other three captains with them were made princes of Belfalas, Lebennin, and Calenardhon. However, there is no evidence to suggest that is really what happened. The first Prince of Belfalas could have married Elendil's second cousin, for all we know, but could have himself been born in Middle-earth.

There was a prince of Cardolan who died in 1409, several decades after the last King of Cardolan (descended from Isildur) had died. We don't know how that "last prince of Cardolan" acquired his title, but it is tempting to suggest that he was descended from one of the three captains who reached Lindon with Elendil. Elendil could have established those three captains as princes in the north. Presumably, their families would have died out as the families of two of the three hypothetical southern princes would have died out.

...As for the other fiefs, did they generally honor typical feudal contracts by responding to calls of war, paying tributes, etc? Or did they have their rebellous periods, perhaps once the line of kings died out?

There is no real evidence of feudalism in Gondor. There appears to have been some sort of feudalism in Arnor, but it doesn't seem to have been structured anything like French or English feudalism. By inference, we can argue that Gondor probably practiced similar arrangements when the need arose.

In both kingdoms, the monarchs were the supreme authorities, but they did not govern autocratically. They were advised by councils of nobles whose collective wills appear to have been required to establish new laws.

Dagorlad: Tolkien indicates that as part of the decentralizing effort in Gondor, its Eastern territories were abandoned. I have always believed that this included Dagorlad. In this case, did Mordor occupy and begin administering Dagorlad? Or did it fall into the hands of Easterlings? Or did the people who had lived there before under Gondor's control simply rule themselves?

Mordor had not yet risen again when Gondor lost control over the Dagorlad and its other eastern territories in TA 1944.

Mirkwood: Thranduil obviously ruled northern Mirkwood, and Sauron ruled southern Mirkwood, up to Dol Guldur. What about the rest of Mirkwood? Was there a political entity there, or were there several? Some have told me that Mirkwood was split into four, but I have no idea about the political boundries nor backgrounds of the other two. Were there any major cities in the middle of Mirkwood, outside the control of Thranduil and Mordor? Who controlled the region around Dol Guldur prior to Sauron's occupying it?

There is no basis for stating that Mirkwood was divided into four political regions.

However, there appear to have been four areas of primary settlement.

Thranduil and his people were living in or near the Mountains of Greenwood the Great (also called Emyn Duir, the Dark Hills or Hills of Darkness, and later called the Mountains of Mirkwood) at the start of the Third Age. He did not abandon that region until Dol Guldur was established by the newly risen Sauron around TA 1050. Dol Guldur was built on the site of the original home of Thranduil's people, Amon Lanc, where Thranduil's father Oropher had established his kingdom among the Silvan Elves (according to notes in Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth).

The Woodmen of Greenwood the Great appear to have settled in the central regions of the forest during the War of the Elves and Sauron (SA 1695-1701), when Sauron destroyed the Edainic peoples living between the Misty Mountains and the Carnen (the Red River, which flowed south out of the Iron Hills).

Other Edainic survivors may have fled to the Misty Mountains and probably to the northern reaches of Greenwood the Great.

By the beginning of the Third Age, the Free Men of the North were gradually spreading south along Greenwood's northeastern edge toward the lands around Erebor.

The eastern Free Men appear to have been the ancestors of the Northmen of Rhovanion, who were the ancestors of the Eotheod, who were the ancestors of the Rohirrim. These eastern Free Men were also the ancestors of the Men of Dale and the Long Lake.

The Eotheod intermarried with the Woodmen, and so the Rohirrim were related to the Woodmen of Mirkwood and the Beornings.

Dol Guldur, being the seat of Sauron's power for the first 1000 years of his tenure in the Third Age, was the entry point to Mirkwood and the Vales of Anduin for many evil creatures, including the giant spiders, the Orcs, Trolls, and many Easterlings.

We cannot be sure that these creatures hadn't survived in Greenwood and the Vales of Anduin from the end of the First Age, when they fled east. But "Dwarves and Men" implies that the Longbeard Dwarves and their Edainic allies did a pretty thorough job of cleaning up the region prior to the War of the Elves and Sauron.

Easterlings appear to have migrated north along Mirkwood during the period TA 1050-1150, by which time the Hobbits were fleeing over the Misty Mountains. The Men of Angmar may have been descendants of these Easterlings.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Do we have any indicia that the Firebeards or Broadbeams reestablished kindoms or major polities in the blue Mountains after the ruin of Belegost and Nogrod, as opposed to just scattered town size communities? We know that large numbers of them moved to Dwarrowdelf after the end of the first age.

The names of those two peoples only appear in the "Dwarves and Men" essay (so far -- perhaps they will appear in more material awaiting publication, but I doubt that will happen). So far as we know, their realms never became significant again.

[Dark Lord Sauron]

Well, it seems I have gotten a good amount of responses, many of them informative. For this I am quite appreciative.

At the same time, I still have questions that I have not posted, and questions bourne by the answers given here. So, without further ado:

-Did Osgiliath lie within Ithilien or Anorien? Ithilien seems like the logical choice but the city is on the wrong side of the river.

-Did Dunland lie within Enedwaith, or was it a completely seperate province?

-Who would you consider to be in charge of the northern/southern portions of the Misty Mountains by 3019; Dwarves, Orcs, or Men? It seems that with the occupation of both Moria in the south and the High Pass in the north by Orcs, that they would control it.

The Dunlendings occupied Isengard (Angrenost) before Saruman settled there, and he did not arrive there until after the Rohirrim had recaptured the fortress.

-I was under the impression that not only did the Dunedain build, but they also controlled Isengard, at least up until the men of Dunland captured it. In this case, how could Rohan have "recaptured" it? Did it cede control of the fortress to Gondor before it was given to Saruman?

"Dwarves and Men" says the Longbeard Dwarves claimed all of the Misty Mountains...

-But how much of this did they actually control, before the conquest of Moria? After its conquest?

The narrower, more specific use of the name was its application to the kingdom of Vidugavia, who called himself King of Rhovanion. He controled the lands between southern Mirkwood and the Celduin (the River Running in The Hobbit). His people cut so much timber from southeastern Mirkwood that they created the "East Bigt", the huge indentation in the forest shown on the maps.

-I am somewhat unfamiliar with the Hobbit and have not read it in years. Did this kingdom continue to exist up until the War of the Ring? What was the culture of the men of this kingdom?

The ancient Dwarven cities were Belegost and Nogrod. Belegost was probably completely abandoned early in the Second Age (many, if not all, of its people migrated to Khazad-dum). Nogrod suffered tremendous losses but may have remained inhabited throughout the Second and Third Age.

-So was Nogrod the ONLY place the Dwarves were settled in within the Blue Mountains by III 3019? Or were the spread out all over the range but very decentralized?

There is no such name in any of the published Tolkien texts.

-...

OK. I'm lost then, because there seems to be this region that lies in between Lindon and Arthedain. I have seen it on some maps, but named only on one, and it was called Numeriador.

The council decided to keep Imladris as the chief Eldarin stronghold east of the Lhun. There is nothing in any other published text which contradicts this account.

-Did Elrond ever actually administer Eregion?

In The Peoples of Middle-earth, it is said that Eomer was king of Rohan and Dunland in the Fourth Age. That would mean that Rohan took control of Dunland by right of victory after the War of the Ring. Rohan did not control Dunland prior to that time.

-Did this include Angrenost, or its ruins?

The other regions to the west of Belfalas (and possibly to the north) were added by conquest centuries later.

-Could you kindly provide dates of conquest, or at least a source where I could find them?

There is no real evidence of feudalism in Gondor.

-Then what is the role of the fiefs within the Kingdom?

There appears to have been some sort of feudalism in Arnor, but it doesn't seem to have been structured anything like French or English feudalism.

-Is there any text/map that mentions these fiefs in the North Kingdom? Specific names and their locations?

Mordor had not yet risen again when Gondor lost control over the Dagorlad and its other eastern territories in TA 1944.

But would it be a mistake to assume, that when Sauron gained control of both Dol Guldur and Mordor, that he also took Dagorlad to provide a land connection?

Thank you in advance for your responses!

EDIT: I do have one additional question.

Gondor is split up entirely into provinces. Whether this is a sign of centralization or decentralization I do not know, although Mr. Martinez suggests the former, so I shall place my bets on that. I know where most of the areas of Gondor were assigned control to, ie Minas Tirith lies in Anorien.

Which province controls the region between the Lenfui and Angren rivers? This is the region with the little peninsula sticking out and is the western-most portion of Gondor.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
-Did Osgiliath lie within Ithilien or Anorien? Ithilien seems like the logical choice but the city is on the wrong side of the river.

According to "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", Osgiliath was built atop a huge bridge which spanned the Anduin. This bridge-top position is also referred to in "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields". The ruins which stand upon either side of the river at the end of the Third Age imply that the city grew beyond its original boundaries before it was abandoned.

-Did Dunland lie within Enedwaith, or was it a completely seperate province?

"Enedwaith" means "the middle peoples" or "the folk between [the realms of Arnor and Gondor]". The Dunlendings were part of the Enedwaith, and Dunland itself is described as being eastern Enedwaith in at least one place.

-Who would you consider to be in charge of the northern/southern portions of the Misty Mountains by 3019; Dwarves, Orcs, or Men? It seems that with the occupation of both Moria in the south and the High Pass in the north by Orcs, that they would control it.

I would say that the Orcs controlled most of the Misty Mountains. The Beornings kept open the High Pass but the rest of the mountains were dangerous to cross.

-I was under the impression that not only did the Dunedain build, but they also controlled Isengard, at least up until the men of Dunland captured it. In this case, how could Rohan have "recaptured" it? Did it cede control of the fortress to Gondor before it was given to Saruman?

As an ally of Gondor, Rohan "recaptured" Isengard on behalf of Gondor. It was more a figure of speech than anything else. I meant only that it was taken back from the enemies of Rohan and Gondor.

More in another followup.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron

-Did Osgiliath lie within Ithilien or Anorien? Ithilien seems like the logical choice but the city is on the wrong side of the river.

Michael answered some of this... but I don't think Osgiliath belonged to EITHER Anorien or Ithilien. Sort of like Washington DC not being in any of the 50 states in the USA. In the Second Age, after the founding of Gondor, Anarion had a 'seat' of his own at Minas Anor (later Minas Tirith, of course) and Isildur had a 'seat' at Minas Ithil (later Minas Morgul)... but they each had a seat, side-by-side, at the capital city of Osgiliath - and though Isildur was the elder brother, they appear to have been co-equal, co-rulers.

Uh... Michael - I still don't know about this... do you see WHO we're giving all this information to?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Valandil
... and there are certainly more expert voices than my own around.

Case in point... Michael Martinez! He generally seems to know his stuff.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
-But how much of this did they actually control, before the conquest of Moria? After its conquest?

During the First Age, I think the Longbeard Dwarves were free to go wherever they wished in the Misty Mountains. That doesn't mean I think they had colonies, forts, and roads throughout the region. I just mean they would have had few enemies in the area, since Morgoth had devoted most of his forces (and attention) to the wars in Beleriand.

In the Second Age, the Longbeard Dwarves had to forge an alliance with the Edainic Men of Wilderland in order to defeat and drive out the Orcs. After that time, for maybe a thousand years, the Dwarves (and Men) controlled the area well enough that they could do whatever they wish.

During the War of the Elves and Sauron, according to "Dwarves and Men", Sauron destroyed the alliance between the Longbeards and the Edainic peoples. The Longbeards remained secure in Khazad-dum, but they apparently lost control over large portions of the Misty Mountains (at least for a while).

Sauron's armies were eventually destroyed by the Numenoreans, but the extensive culture of Wilderland had nonetheless been destroyed (as had that of Eriador). There are no published texts which indicate how much (or how little) influence or control over the rest of the mountains the Longbeards retained throughout the rest of the Second Age.

After the War of the Last Alliance, the Longbeard Dwarves should have been able to re-establish control over their old regions. That control would have diminished slightly as Sauron's Easterlings encroached upon the northern mountains. By 1300, when Angmar arose, it is obvious the Dwarves no longer controlled the northern Misty Mountains. They probably didn't control much of the Grey Mountains, either.

When the Balrog destroyed the Longbeard civilization in Khazad-dum, the Dwarves were free to migrate north because Angmar had been destroyed in both Eriador and the Vales of Anduin.

-I am somewhat unfamiliar with the Hobbit and have not read it in years. Did this kingdom continue to exist up until the War of the Ring? What was the culture of the men of this kingdom?

Vidugavia's Kingdom of Rhovanion was conquered by the Wainriders in the 19th century. The Eotheod were established by survivors of the cavalry from the army of the kingdom who fled west.

We can reasonably infer that the Northmen of the Kingdom of Rhovanion lived in wooden homes and possibly in stockaded villages (which is probably how the Woodmen lived in the Forest). There is no indication that horses were central to their culture. The Eotheod (the name means something like "horse-folk") were the true progenitors of the horse-based culture which flourished in Rohan many centuries later. But even the Rohirrim were not nomads. They lived in stone and wooden houses and halls.

Tolkien most likely based the Rohirrim on the Goths of the late 4th and 5th centuries. They were a steppe people living outside the Roman empire, but they had settled in valleys and were farmers who also happened to maintain horses and remnants of the steppe culture their ancestors had adopted.

The Goths originally came from what is now southern Sweden. They migrated southeast through what is now Poland into what is now the Ukraine. They settled as far south as the Crimean penninsula on the Black Sea. And though they must have had at least rudimentary knowledge of ships and boats when they were living in the Baltic Sea, by the time they reached the Black Sea they had lost all knowledge of ship-builiding.

The Goths clashed with descendants of the ancient Scythians and Sarmatians. One Scythian tribe, the Alans, allied themselves with some of the Goths. Ermanaric built up a huge kingdom northeast of the Roman empire in the 4th century, but that kingdom was destroyed by the Attila and the Huns. Many of the Goths fled west. Some of those Goths eventually crossed into the Roman empire. They became the Ostrogoths and their best known king ws Alaric, who led a migration into Italy and captured Rome (by that time, the chief capitol of the empire was Constantinople, later called Byzantium after its ancient Greek name, and today's Istanbul).

The Visigoths entered the empire many years later. They settled in what became southern France and spread into southeastern France. But the Franks drove them south across the Pyrenees mountains into Iberia (modern Spain and Portugal). The Visigoths drove the Vandals out of Iberia into northern Africa.

The Ostrogoths had one more great king, Theodoric the Great, who conquered Italy in the 490s with the blessing of the eastern Roman emperor. But the Ostrogothic kingdom was eventually destroyed by the Byzantines.

The Visigothic kingdom suvrived until 711, when Moors invaded on the pretect of intervening in a dispute over the succession of the throne and destroyed the kingdom. About 30 years later, a Visigothic chieftain named Pelayo established a small independent "kingdom" in the north, and began the long, slow Reconquista which was not completed until 1492, when Ferdinand and Isabella conquered the Kingdom of Granada and reunited most of the Iberia penninsula (Portugal had come into existence by that time).

All that Gothic history is meant to illustrate how Tolkien draw upon real history for some of his Rohirric history. The Rohirrim were descended from Northmen whose powerful eastern kingdom was destroyed by Hun-like invaders (the Wainriders). Some of the Northmen migrated into Gondor and were absorbed into the Gondorian population. But some of them retained their tribal identity outside of Gondor's control.

Eventually, the Eotheod settled in lands ceded to them by Gondor, just as the Visigoths settled in lands ceded to them by the Roman empire. Eventually, the Rohirrim were almost destroyed by powerful enemies (the Dunlendings and other forces), just as the Visigoths were driven out of France.

Of course, the Rohirrim recovered their lands and maintained their integrity. So Tolkien wasn't exactly copying their history. And, in fact, the resemblance between their general histories pretty much ends there.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
-So was Nogrod the ONLY place the Dwarves were settled in within the Blue Mountains by III 3019? Or were the spread out all over the range but very decentralized?

Thrain and Thorin moved from Dunland to the southern Ered Luin after the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. So, there were Longbeard Dwarves living in the region for at least part of the Third Age.

It's hard to say where the Dwarves would have lived, though. Even Karen Fonstad suggests two locations for the city of Belegost. And Arvedui took refuge in abandoned, ancient Dwarf mines.

OK. I'm lost then, because there seems to be this region that lies in between Lindon and Arthedain. I have seen it on some maps, but named only on one, and it was called Numeriador.

Someone other than J.R.R. Tolkien must have made it up. It could be translated as "west Eriador" (although I think Duneriador would be more appropriate). My guess is that it came from the Iron Crown Enterprises role-playing game. They made up many names which people occasionally confuse with the Tolkien canon.

-Did Elrond ever actually administer Eregion?

I cannot answer that question, except by pointing out that Tolkien wrote very little regarding the Second Age -- especially regarding Eriador in the Second Age.

-Did this include Angrenost, or its ruins?

Aragorn retained control over the fortress. He took the key from Fangorn in "Many Partings".

-Could you kindly provide dates of conquest, or at least a source where I could find them?

Probably occurred during the years Tarannon Falastur was Captain of Hosts (prior to his becoming king, since his royal name, "Falastur", means "Lord of Coasts"). His father Siriondil ruled Gondor from 748 to 830. Tarannon rules from 830 to 913.

There are no specific events for that period in "The Tale of Years" (The Lord of the Rings, Appendix B). Falastur was the first childless King of Gondor, but he was not unmarried. His wife was Beruthiel, a Black Numenorean lady (according to Tolkien in a an interview he gave in the 1960s). Tarannon's nephew conquered Umbar a few years after coming to the throne (933). Chris Seeman, publisher of the journal Other Hands, argued that Beruthiel may have been a princess of Umbar. Tarannon's humiliation of her (he put her on a ship with her cats and sent it south past Umbar) could have served as a pretext for the war. That is all entirely speculative.

-Then what is the role of the fiefs within the Kingdom?

Historically, they might have served some sort of feudal purpose. Feudalism arose from two customs of the ancient Germanic kings. First, they gathered warbands of specially dedicated warriors who swore special service to their leaders. These warriors were supposed to die with their lords if the leaders fell in combat, among other things. The leaders, in return for such service, provided those warriors with everything they needed: food, gold, shelter, weapons.

Each German tribe had one or two "royal" families from whom all kings had to be selected. There were many chiefs from other families, but none of them could be true kings. The royal princes often strove with each other for mastery over their tribes.

By the time Clovis became a king, he was not the only Frankish king. The Franks were, in fact, a confederation of tribes who shared a common culture and dialect. They were not a very sophisticated people. Clovis decided to unite them all under his leadership.

By this time, the Franks had conquered most of Gaul and divided it up into little kingships. Geoffrey of Tours says that after Clovis eliminated his relatives, he bemoaned the fact that he had no kinsmen left. Geoffrey suggests that Clovis only meant he wanted to keep fighting and conquering Frankish rivals.

To reward his followers, Clovis bequethed huge tracts of land throughout Gaul (Francia). These tracts of land were given in perpetuity. That is, their recipients became landowners, not landholders. Clovis further sub-divided his kingdom between his sons.

For a couple of centuries after that time, the Franks woudl periodically reunite the various kingdoms (usually Austrasia, Neustria, Thuringia, and one or two others) and then divide them upon the death of the conquering king.

Eventually, the Merovingian Dynasty (Clovis' family was descended from Merovech) became so decadent that the kings left most matters in the hands of their chief domestic servants (the Major Domos, or Mayors of the Palace). One such Mayor, Pepin II, was eventually able to displace the last Merovingian king and proclaim himself monarch (with approval of the Pope).

The Pepinids consolidated power but eventually they went back to dividing the kingdom among the sons. Charles the Great (Charlemagne) conquered most of Europe and his son did the same thing: divided Grandpa's empire into three kingdoms, two of which eventually squeezed out the third.

Eventually, Charlemagne's descendants became too disorganized and decadent, and THEY were displaced by Hugh Capet. Well, good old Hugh and his family decided it didn't make any sense to keep giving away land that would eventually have to be conquered. So, instead, they started doling out parcels of land in exchange for military service. The attacks of the Vikings made that necessary because the Frankish kings could not maintain armies large enough to defend all of France.

Meanwhile, over in England, a lot of little itty bitty kingdoms were founded by Saxon and Angle chieftains who couldn't become kings on the mainland. Nobody much cared what they did in England -- it was open season on the formerly Romano-Celtic lands. The rightful kings of the Angles eventually moved to England but they could not take control over the already established Angle kingdoms in the eastern part of the island. So, somehow, they and their followers became the Mierce -- the Border-folk -- who founded Mercia.

The various English and Celtic kingdoms (and at one time there were around 20 of them) fought each other endlessly for centuries, gradually consolidating power in fewer and fewer hands. By the time the Vikings began invading, there were only a handful of English kingdoms and a few Welsh and Cornish princes.

The Vikings took over about 1/3 of the English lands. Alfred the Great stopped them and launched the process of final consolidation. But his descendants were shunted aside by the Danish king Canute, who conquered all of England. England was eventually returned to the English but the new English dynasty couldn't handle the politics. William, Duke of Normandy, saw an opportunity and took it.

And now here is where feudalism really takes off. The English had developed a system where the kings were advised by great earls, powerful regional princes (some of whom claimed descent from old dynasties) who led their own armies.

William swept all that aside. He destroyed the English nobility and their forces. He tore down their castles, too, and built his own. He then divided England among his followers and made them all barons, requiring that they swear fealty directly to him.

Continued in another message...

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
-Then what is the role of the fiefs within the Kingdom?

Continued from previous message...

You see, by this time, France had become so divided and sub-divided that the French kings were weaker than many of their direct vassals. That was because the vassals had acquired control over huge estates and regions, and had further sub-divided those regions among their own followers. William, being one of the most powerful of the French king's vassals, didn't want that to happen to him.

Now, what does all that have to do with Gondor? Absolutely nothing.

You see, Gondor doesn't have a history like either England or France. So, there is no historical reason for Gondor to employ a feudalism like either England or France.

However, many people are convinced that Gondor must have been feudal anyway because Tolkien used words like "fief" and "lord" and "knights".

But those words are not solely associated with feudalism, certainly not with any particular KIND of feudalism, and Tolkien was free to use them in any way he wished, so long as that usage made some sort of sense to his readers.

So, my feeling is that Gondor (and Arnor) were established in a way similar to the ancient Frankish division of lands: absolute, total ownership of the lands was given out by the king.

I think Tolkien would have felt that would encourage wealthy Numenoreans to colonize dangerous borderlands. It would also establish the kind of autonomy that Belfalas enjoyed under the Stewards. The Stewards could not command the Princes of Belfalas as if they were simply feudal vassals who had paid homage to them.

Now, the Kings and Stewards could also have recruited their own personal retainers like the Frankish comitatus. These retainers would have entered into a relationship with their lords similar to the relationship between the ancient Germanic princes and their followers. It was not classic feudalism because no land was exchanged for military service. Some people point out that it still became a feudal practice (that is, Pippin's oath to Denethor could be deemed feudal even though he didn't get any land in exchange for his service).

There is no indication that Denethor was served by feudal vassals, but there are a few other "lords" who are named, such as Angbor of Lamedon. Were these lrods feudal vassals to the Stewards (and, hence, the Kings)? Tolkien doesn't say. They may have been more like the English earls, regional leaders whose families had been prominent since time out of mind.


The bottom line, however, is that there is no evidence of the sort of feudalism which was practiced throughout England and France from 1066 onward.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
-Is there any text/map that mentions these fiefs in the North Kingdom? Specific names and their locations?

No. I have speculated that Rhudaur and Cardolan would have been principalities, but there is no real evidence to support that point of view.

But would it be a mistake to assume, that when Sauron gained control of both Dol Guldur and Mordor, that he also took Dagorlad to provide a land connection?

Sauron's forces seized control over Mordor sometime after the Great Plague (1636). At that time, they would have had to enter from the east, because Gondor and its Northman allies still controlled the lands between Mordor and Mirkwood.

After the Wainriders destroyed the Northmen and deprived Gondor of its eastern lands (1851-1944), things could have changed, but Sauron retreated from Dol Guldur in 2063, not long after the Nazgul had seized Minas Ithil (2002). Sauron probably began fortifying and establishing complete control over the region after his return at the end of the Watchful Peace (2460). His forces would have been relatively unimpeded.

Which province controls the region between the Lefnui and Angren rivers? This is the region with the little peninsula sticking out and is the western-most portion of Gondor.

While that was technically Gondorian land, it appears to have been settled by Druedain, Dunlendings, and Rohirrim. Its people probably would have acknowledged no king. The Druedain were thought to have died out, but according to one text published in Unfinished Tales, they were found to still be existing when they finished off the last of Saruman's Uruk-hai and other Orcs.

[Spock]

Gee, I've read the books for decades and didn't know half this stuff.
I'm all the better for it though, therapy takes less time now.

[Maerbenn]

Originally posted by Michael Martinez
The ancient Dwarven cities were Belegost and Nogrod. Belegost was probably completely abandoned early in the Second Age (many, if not all, of its people migrated to Khazad-dum). Nogrod suffered tremendous losses but may have remained inhabited throughout the Second and Third Age.

Michael, ‘The History of Galadriel and Celeborn’ in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth contains this sentence:

There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been – not far from Nenuial; but they had transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dûm.

The term Numeriador comes indeed from MERP (Middle-earth Role Playing).

[Dark Lord Sauron]

Before I begin my next (and hopefully finally) set of questions (although, a dedicated mind is never satisfied only with the answers it has), I would like to demonstrate what I believe eastern Gondor and Rhovanion look like in the middle of the 2nd millenium of the Third Age:


http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Rhovanion.jpg

Basically Gondor controls Dagorlad and southern Rhovanion.

So,

-Rhovanion. I'm not going on much here so bear with me. What was the exact date of the founding of Vidugavia's kingdom? I know it had to be sometime before 1366.

What was the exact nature of the relationship between Rhovanion and Gondor? Previously, Gondor had wiped out an Easterling force in that area, so was it encouraging migration from the Northmen? Or did they come on their own will? Did Gondor cede southern Rhovanion to them (I do not believe so since when the Wainriders overran s. Rhovanion, it was Gondorian)?

Rhovanion streched from Mirkwood to the Celduin river. Did it reach as far as Rhun? I do not believe so but I have nothing to back that up.

-Khand, Harad, etc. Is there any sort of list of rulers for these tribes?

What was the relationship between the Near Harad and Far Harad?

-Wainriders. Were exactly did the Wainriders come from? Were they destroyed after the Battle of the Camp, or did they continue to survive? If so, where? After Gondor defeated them in battle in 1899 did it bother to reclaim southern Rhovanion? Did the Wainriders maintain any sort of presence in Rhovanion between 1899 and the invasion with the Harad and Khand?

-Balchoth. They are listed as living east of Mirkwood. Would this mean that they lived north of the Celduin, somewhere near Erebor? Or did they live within the area of the former Kingdom of Rhovanion? If so, where did they migrate from?

-Ithilien. I had assumed that Mordor's conquest of Ithilien only streched as far west as Minas Morgul. However, I have read that all Ithilien was conquered prior to the War of the Ring. Is this true? If so, wouldn't the forces of Mordor be practically at the gates of Osgiliath even before war was declared?

-Iron Crown Enterprises role-playing game/
MERP (Middle-earth Role Playing).

No idea what these are.

-Also, I thought it interesting that you considered Gondor to be symbolic of the Western Roman Empire. Personally I thought there was a load of history that supported it as the Eastern half:

1. It's in the east.
2. It outlasted its sister-state.
3. It attempted to integrate roving tribal peoples peacefully, as Emperor Valens did prior to his death.
4. You stated that Gondor was quite centralized. If so, then this is equivalent with the Byzantine Empire's stance as the most centralized realm in Europe at the time, with the themes (fiefs) led by governors directly subject to the Emperor.
5. The Wainriders were the initial Arab invaders, who drove the Empire out of its Eastern possessions.
6. Both Gondor and the Byzantine Empire continually attempted to maintain its hold on its southern (Umbar, Holy Land/N. Africa) areas.
7. The Balchoth were Easterlings, like the Wainriders, who nearly brought the Empire to its knees (Manzikert 1071). This forced Gondor to call for aid, bringing the Rohirrim who, while saving the kingdom, brought numerous other problems, such as the Dunlending expulsion (Crusader uprooting of various Bulgarian and Macedonian communities).
8. Gondor and the Empire both had numerous cultural issues, with the Dunlendings (Albanians, Italians, etc.) proving revoltous and not easily controllable.
9. Meanwhile, in the west, following the fall of Fornost, Gondor sent a large fleet to retake the lands of the North Kingdom from the invaders, and held Fornost for a little (Belisarius' campaigns).
10. In the west, the former kingdom of Arnor was giving way to small communities that looked out only for the needs of its local inhabitants, and adopted very un-Dunedain culture (The Brits, Franks, etc.)
11. Arthedain (Arnor) was under continual attack from enemies from the east and north. Gondor, while under the same attacks, managed them at least somewhat. (The Visigoths)
12. Great Plague. Begun in the latter days of Justinian and greatly reduced the population of the Empire, causing a consolidation of people to within the capital while abandoning some areas around it (Ithilien).
13. Gondor was constantly shrinking after a certain point. The loss of lands in the west (Dunlendings, Italy, Albania), east (S. Rhovanion, western Armenia), south (Umbar, the Holy Land, North Africa), and north (Dagorlad, Bulgaria).
14. Minas Tirith had never successfully been captured and sacked. If it had, it could have easily meant the end of Gondor as a state; indeed, after the Plague it was becoming the essence of the kingdom itself, and was so important that it was THE City of Gondor. Constantinople was taken twice; the second time was fatal.