fate of Arda

[Arien the Maia]

I have a question about the fate of Arda. I there is already a thread about this I'm sorry, close this one or move it. Anywho....were the Two Trees of Valinor destined to die? I mean if they didn't, how would Men have awoken?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

The sun and moon developing from the Two Trees was said to be a Mannish Myth. In Tolkiens later writing, men were said to have awoken a lot earlier, possibly in the Great March of the Eldar. (Read HoME 10 for more.)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
The sun and moon developing from the Two Trees was said to be a Mannish Myth. In Tolkiens later writing, men were said to have awoken a lot earlier, possibly in the Great March of the Eldar. (Read HoME 10 for more.)

So did Christopher make a mistake when he published the Sil? Was the Chapter "of Men" supposed to have been different? I am saving up to buy the whole HoME series...so soon I should be able to read it

[Melko Belcha]

Right at the end of Tolkien's life he started to totally redo The Silmarillion, where the Sun and Moon were here from the begining and did not come from the Trees. This never went past a few rewritings of the opening chapters and notes. In other words, The Silmarillion that he spent so many years working on he scrapped and was starting all over again with a whole new history for Elves and Men. See Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring HoME X.

In answer to your first question, I say yes, the Trees were destined to die. This is just my opinion on the matter, but the Valar had neglected ME, and were to comfortable in their paradise behind the mountains. They had forgotten all the Elves still in ME, and the Men that were to come.

If the Trees were not destroyed would Man have awoke? Who knows, but it seems it takes a certain event to make the Children of Iluvatar awake, the Elves awoke after Varda's second star making, when the brightest stars were lifted into the sky, and Men awoke with the first rising of the Sun.

You also asked, 'So did Christopher make a mistake when he published the Sil?'. The Sil is the result of years of writings that Tolkien had done and Christopher Tolkien put together as best and coherently as he could achive at the time. After working on Unfinished Tales and the Home series he found that there were many mistakes in the published Sil. I look at the Sil as a guide to the HoME series, it shows you the direction Tolkien was taking and how he wanted it to appear. But as far as being exaclty what Tolkien wanted, it is not, but without it, for me atleast, I think the HoME series would be extremely hard to understand.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Just wanted to point out about the other Elves still in Middle-earth that that was by no fault of the Valar, but solely because of the Elves themselves and their refusal to answer the summons.

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Just wanted to point out about the other Elves still in Middle-earth that that was by no fault of the Valar, but solely because of the Elves themselves and their refusal to answer the summons.

If I made it sound like a fault of the Valar, then it was not intended. It's just the Valar, other then Ulmo, were content with the way the world was, they seem to have totally forgotten the Moriquendi until Melkor returned to ME. But this is what I like about the Valar, there not perfect, they make mistakes. Their intentions were good and their hearts were in the right place, but they had not taken up the control or tried to heal the hurts down to the world after Melkor was chained and imprisoned in Mandos, they stayed behind their mountains and left ME to darkness.

[Fat middle]

haven't read the Ainulindale lately, but i believe that men were a theme introducted by Eru after the first theme had fallen into chaos.

so, when men were conceived in Eru's mind the trees where destined to die.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Fat middle
haven't read the Ainulindale lately, but i believe that men were a theme introducted by Eru after the first theme had fallen into chaos.

so, when men were conceived in Eru's mind the trees where destined to die.

ahh yes...the themes of music...that explains alot! Thanks everyone for your input

[Lizra]

I'm confused now! I mentioned on the silm thread (chapter 3) about the music and the children. Rian said the themes had nothing to do with elves and men, it was all in response to Melkor. But, I have read several people state that the children of Iluvatar are in the music, specifically the last two mini themes! Oh Rian!

[Fat middle]

i've also heard different interpretations of the themes in the music. as i said, i cannot assure now anything because it's been a time since i last read the ainulindale.

[Lizra]

Must be this is one of those "up for Interpretation" things! I wonder if Micheal Martinez has an article about "The music"? Maybe I'll look when I have some free time!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Just wanted to point out about the other Elves still in Middle-earth that that was by no fault of the Valar, but solely because of the Elves themselves and their refusal to answer the summons.

Refusal, yes... but partly because Melkor had made the Quendi afraid of Orome. When Orome came, they fled, fearing they would be taken and devoured by Orome.

Yet many of the Quendi were filled with dread at his (Orome) coming; and this was the doing of Melkor. For by afterknowledge the wise declare that Melkor, ever watchful, was first aware of the awakening of the Quendi, and sent shadows and evil spirits to spy upon them and waylay them.... And indeed the most ancient songs of the Elves, ... tell of the shadow-shapes that walked in the hills above Cuivienen, or would pass suddenly over the stars; and of the dark Rider upon his wild horse that pursued those that wandered to take them and devour them. Now Melkor greatly hated and feared the riding of Orome, and either he sent indeed his dark servants as riders, or he set lying whispers abroad, for the purpose that the Quendi should shun Orome....

So, really, they fled... yes... but can you really put all of the blame on the Avari?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No, but it was not any fault of the Valar, either. As usual, Melkor was to blame.

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Lizra
I'm confused now! I mentioned on the silm thread (chapter 3) about the music and the children. Rian said the themes had nothing to do with elves and men, it was all in response to Melkor. But, I have read several people state that the children of Iluvatar are in the music, specifically the last two mini themes! Oh Rian!

I do believe the themes had to do with Elves and Men.
The Silmarillion - Of the Begining of Days

For Elves and Men are the Children of Iluvatar; and since they (the Ainur) understood not fully that theme by which the Children entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion.

And to me this describes the Elves
The Sil - Ainulindale

The one was deep and wide, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came.

And this Men

The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes.

The Domination of Man, and the passing of the Elves

And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice,......

The marrages between Man and Elf.

......but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solem pattern

When Melkor had arisen in discord, Iluvatar began a new theme (Elves), but Melkor rose in discord again until he had the mastery, then Iluvatar began another theme (Men) that started soft and sweet, but it took to itself a power and profundity. The two themes raised by Iluvatar in responce to Melkor's discord was his own and none of the Ainur had part in it, IMO this was the creation of Elves and Men.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
I do believe the themes had to do with Elves and Men.
The Silmarillion - Of the Begining of Days

And to me this describes the Elves
The Sil - Ainulindale

And this Men

The Domination of Man, and the passing of the Elves

The marrages between Man and Elf.

When Melkor had arisen in discord, Iluvatar began a new theme (Elves), but Melkor rose in discord again until he had the mastery, then Iluvatar began another theme (Men) that started soft and sweet, but it took to itself a power and profundity. The two themes raised by Iluvatar in responce to Melkor's discord was his own and none of the Ainur had part in it, IMO this was the creation of Elves and Men.

Wow, I had never thought of it like that! Now I have a whole new outlook on the Music

[Fat middle]

i made, as Lizra suggested, a search in MM webpage and found that he uses this text of the Athrabeth Finrod... to interpret the music:

The Eldar held that Eru was and is free at all stages. This freedom was shown to in the Music by His introduction, after the arising of the discords of Melkor, of the two new themes, representing the coming of the Elves and Men, which were not in His first communication. He may therefore ... introduce things directly, which were not in the Music and so are not achieved through the Valar. It remains, nonetheless, true in general to regard Ea as achieved through their mediation.

So Eru's themes were about the children though the valar may have not known it.

[Lizra]

All right! I had originally thought the last two themes were elves and men, the way MBelcha suggested. Thank's for the clarification MB, and FM. This sounds like the answer! I love the musical creation!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lizra
I'm confused now! I mentioned on the silm thread (chapter 3) about the music and the children. Rian said the themes had nothing to do with elves and men, it was all in response to Melkor. But, I have read several people state that the children of Iluvatar are in the music, specifically the last two mini themes! Oh Rian!

It was in response to Melkor, but the themes did represent the children of Iluvatar - I guess I wasn't clear on that. Also, I think the order was changed - which kind (elves, men)came with which theme (2nd, 3rd), esp. in Morgoth's Ring, where he fiddled around a lot with the creation part of the story. But I'm in a real hurry and will have to look into it more later.

[Anglorfin]

The Valar also see a vision of Arda as they sung it. Arda in all it's glory and yet still in all it's tumult because of the discord of Melkor. But even Melkor's discord was woven into harmony and beauty at some points, like with the frost and the dew on wide fields in the morning.

Yet it was still their task to make that world, so they couldn't know everything, but they knew at some point unforseen the Children would awake. I remember this being a somewhat important aspect in the Silmarillion; that the Valar did not know when the Eldar would first awaken. So nothing in Arda was specifically fated to happen except for the knowledge that at some point the Children would awaken and the world must be made ready for them.

[Finmandos12]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
I do believe the themes had to do with Elves and Men.
The Silmarillion - Of the Begining of Days

And to me this describes the Elves
The Sil - Ainulindale

And this Men

The Domination of Man, and the passing of the Elves

The marr[i]ages between Man and Elf.

That's an interesting opinion. Unfortunately, it's not right. You assume that Men were the villains that tried to destroy the Elves' theme. Although it is easier to prefer the Elves over the men (which I do), Men and Elves are not evil vs. good.

The first theme (the deep and wide) was Eru's original plan.

The second one (braying trumpets), and the third quotation was Melkor's attempt to take over Arda.

The fourth quotation refers to the facts that even when Melkor seemed to triumph, Eru still managed to bring good out of it. This is a Biblical idea (not surprising, considering that Tolkien was a Christian). For example, in Genesis 50:20, when Joseph was talking to his brothers who had sold him into slavery -

But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.