UT discussion - 1st Age - Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin

[Varnafindë]

Perhaps not less drama, only different ... not quite so much personal tragedy.

[Tessar]

Some of the questions I couldn't really answer, but I tried to do my best with the ones that I could . This was a great chapter! I finished it a few weeks ago, so some of the details are a tad fuzzy, but these were the overall impressions that I can remember.

1. Is there reason to believe that Tuor's life would have been different if his mother had stayed with him in the Grey-elves' dwellings? Was she not able to control and conquer her grief?
That's a hard one. It really sounds as though, to borrow from the next question, that Ulmo has been guiding Tuor (or at least attempting to--with limited success?) for a very long time. How much of his actions are due to his lineage (heroic father) vs. his 'foster father', vs. Ulmo's influence? It seems to me that Ulmo probably has a great deal to do with it because the chapter is always talking about how Tuor is guided by his longings and desires. Some of the things he is longing for are obviously things that have not been brought to his attention by his foster father, which makes me think Ulmo must have had a hand in it.

2. How much is Ulmo the force behind Tuor's decisions? If not for Ulmo, would Tuor have sought Turgon at all, just for the debt he might have had to Tuor's father?
I'm not sure that I really have an opinion about whether he would have or not, but I think without Ulmo's assistance he would either not have found the gates (without Voronwe being sent to guide him), or if he had found the gates the elves who guarded them would have killed him as an intruder.

4. Are gulls and swans especially connected to Ulmo, the way Eagles are connected to Manwë? Are they Ulmo's messengers to guide Tuor on his way?
I think they are. Most likely Ulmo could use any creature (at least any creature related to water or the sea?) but the swans and gulls seem symbolic, and many of the things that take place in this story are related to ritual, tradition (and the breaking thereof), and symbolism (such as the designs of the gates).

5. Tuor sees the swan's wing emblem as a token to take the "arms unto myself, and upon myself whatsoever doom they bear". Is this out of a sense of duty, or of a sense of adventure - or is he merely following his fate?
I think a great deal of it may have to do with the 'directing' of Ulmo. The arms seem to be a symbol of might (and perhaps have some 'aura' of their own, unrelated to the wearer?) to the elves. The armor is also like an emblem or badge to announce that Tuor is doing the work of Ulmo. Can we also assume that the closer to the sea (Ulmo) that Tuor got, the stronger of an influence Ulmo was able to have on him? This could have been almost a direct influence by Ulmo, to not only guide him to the armor but also guide him to put it on. Is it also symbolic of Ulmo's reach that the cave filled so far with water?

10. The Eagles serve as guards for Turgon - and as messengers. Do you see similarities and differences between their role here and the role of other Eagles in other of Tolkien's stories?
This I'm not sure about, but I will say that it seems interesting that all of the messengers/guides (with the exception of Voronwe, of course) have been birds.

11. Elemmakil says that he "should" slay the stranger of alien kin. Why would it be more necessary to slay a mortal who found the secret, than an Elf who did the same thing?
The elves seem to be a bit xenophobic in a way... maybe racist would be a better term? I think both are a bit too strong, but I think it might be fair to say that the elves have a general distrust, or are at least wary, of humans. Is there a fear that the hearts of men can be turned too easily, and that a human/mortal could be turned to betray them where an elf would be less likely to do so?

12. Do they see Tuor's position as son of Huor as less important than his task as messenger of Ulmo?

I feel like they might be related. I think because Tuor is the son of a mighty man, Huor, that might be why Ulmo chose him. But I'm not sure that his father has much to do with him honestly... he never knew his father or mother, but it seems like he's been guided by Ulmo for years.

Could his orphaning be a direct attempt by Tolkien to release him from any responsibility to lineage? As an orphan, it seems like he's free to become more devoted entirely to doing the task Ulmo sets him.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Tessar

2. How much is Ulmo the force behind Tuor's decisions? If not for Ulmo, would Tuor have sought Turgon at all, just for the debt he might have had to Tuor's father?
I'm not sure that I really have an opinion about whether he would have or not, but I think without Ulmo's assistance he would either not have found the gates (without Voronwe being sent to guide him), or if he had found the gates the elves who guarded them would have killed him as an intruder.

Very good point - it wouldn't have helped even if he had sought Turgon on his own, if he had never found it or had not been admitted.

This could have been almost a direct influence by Ulmo, to not only guide him to the armor but also guide him to put it on.

When the armor is made, Turgon is told exactly what size to make it - as another sign to prove that the right person is wearing it. Ulmo knows long in advance what is going to happen - he's very much behind all this.

I think it might be fair to say that the elves have a general distrust, or are at least wary, of humans. Is there a fear that the hearts of men can be turned too easily, and that a human/mortal could be turned to betray them where an elf would be less likely to do so?

It could well be so - and they have just seen such a betrayal in the latest battle, where the betrayal by the mortals was probably why they lost the battle.

12. Do they see Tuor's position as son of Huor as less important than his task as messenger of Ulmo?

I feel like they might be related. I think because Tuor is the son of a mighty man, Huor, that might be why Ulmo chose him. But I'm not sure that his father has much to do with him honestly... he never knew his father or mother, but it seems like he's been guided by Ulmo for years.

Could his orphaning be a direct attempt by Tolkien to release him from any responsibility to lineage? As an orphan, it seems like he's free to become more devoted entirely to doing the task Ulmo sets him.

Very interesting about Tuor being left alone for such a fate - by Tolkien, but perhaps through him also by Ulmo? There must have been guidance by Ulmo that Tuor has not been aware of, but which is there nevertheless.