UT discussion - 1st Age - Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin

[Varnafindë]

Summary

Tuor was born after his father Huor's death in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. His mother heard about the battle, but there were no news of her husband. Then she wandered into the wild and was given aid by some of the Grey-elves (the Sindar), and Tuor was born at their dwelling west of Lake Mithrim. She gave him the name that his father had chosen for him, and begged of the Elves to foster him. And when she finally heard that Huor had fallen, she left her son with the Elves and found the site of the battle, and there laid her down and died.

Tuor was fostered by the Elves, and by the age of sixteen he was strong and tall and valiant. He told his foster-father Annael that he wanted to take revenge upon the Orcs and the Easterlings, but Annael wouldn't let him, but told him that they would now leave that area and seek other Elves in the South, hopefully through a secret way called the Gate of the Noldor, made in the days of Turgon.

The name Turgon stirred Tuor, without him knowing why. Annael told him that Tuor's father and uncle had helped Turgon escape from the Battle, and Tuor said that he would then try to seek Turgon. Annael said that his abode was unknown, but perhaps they might meet some in the South who could help him. Tuor left with Annael and his people, but they were discovered and separated, and Tuor was taken prisoner by the Easterlings and became a slave for Lorgan, their chieftain.

After three years as a slave, Tuor managed to escape, and for four years he lived as an outlaw in the wilderness, slaying many of the Easterlings, but mainly looking for the Gate of the Noldor, never finding it.

One day he decided to leave those lands, and as he sang an Elven-song, a spring broke out of the ground at his feet, and a stream ran before him. He followed the stream down from the hills of Mthrim and towards the West into the plain of Dor-lomin. After three days of walking, he came to a wall of rock, and the stream disappeared into it. Tuor thought that he was lost. But the next morning he met two Noldorin Elves who told him that the tunnel where the stream had disappeared, was the Gate of the Noldor, and they showed him where to walk to enter it. When he told them that he wanted to search for Turgon, one of them said that if Ulmo, the Lord of Waters, meant for him to find Turgon's dwelling, he would surely be led there.

At the other end of the tunnel there was a great ravine, and he followed it for three days. Then he heard a strange sound, and guessed that it would be some unknown bird, and he followed it up from the ravine towards the South. It turned out to be three great gulls, and as they led him, he came to the coast by Nevrast and saw the Great Sea. Here the sea-longing arose in him for the first time.

Tuor rested for a long while in Nevrast, and one day in the late Summer (or rather early Autumn) he saw seven white swans. He loved swans, and rose to greet them, but they made as to drive him away. Tuor took this as a sign that he had stayed for too long, and he began to follow the swans. For seven days they led him towards the South, until they reached Vinyamar, Turgon's old halls in Nevrast. In these halls Tuor found a hauberk and weapons, and decided to take those arms to himself, with whatsoever doom they bore. He arrayed himself in the hauberk and helm, took the sword and shield and went down to the sea.

There Ulmo, the Lord of Waters, showed himself to him, and told him that he had chosen him to go to Turgon as his messenger, and that the arms that he had found, had been prepared for him to be a token that he was the chosen one. Tuor said that he was willing to be Ulmo's messenger, and Ulmo told him that the last hope of the Noldor lay in Tuor, and that he was meant to bring a hope and a light into the world. Then he promised him a guide, and gave him a cloak, part of his own mantle, and disappeared.

There was a great tumult of the sea, and Tuor fled back to Turgon's halls, and slept there that night. The next morning everything was quiet, and he found an Elf sitting on the beach. This was Voronwë, who had been on one of the ships that Turgon had sent out to try to get across to Valinor to ask for the aid of the Valar. His ship was lost in the storm, but Ulmo had saved him to be Tuor's guide. Voronwë agreed to guide Tuor to the gates of the Hidden Kingdom, but he could make no promise that they would be accepted. Tuor asked for no more than to be led to the gates, though, and said that if Turgon refused to receive him, then his errand would be ended.

Voronwë then told Tuor about Turgon's plans and how he himself had gone on one of the ships that Cirdan the Shipwright had helped them build. Then they left Vinyamar, and Voronwë set them off on the long road towards the Hidden Kingdom.

(TBC)

For the first two or three weeks nothing much happened - they walked by night and rested by day, and Autumn turned to an early Winter. When they reached what had been the pool of Ivren, they saw that the land was defiled and desolate, and they saw tracks of what Voronwë knew must be the "Great Worm of Angband", Glaurung the Dragon. At the same time a Man passed by them in the distance between the trees, crying out in grief, and carrying a black sword. They didn't know that this was Turin, Tuor's cousin, searching for survivors after the fall of Nargothrond. Tuor never saw him again.

The next day there was snow and frost, the beginning of what would be the Fell Winter. Tuor was worried that they would have very far to go, but Voronwë told him that Turgon's Hidden Kingdom was here in the North, not in the far South, as was commonly believed. Although they still had far to go, they were going on a fairly straight route.

They crossed several streams, and then they had to cross the Highway, running down to Nargothrond. Here they were heard and scented by some Orcs - but they hid in Ulmo's cloak, and escaped unseen. Voronwë did not allow Tuor to attack the Orcs, because no-one was allowed to approach the Gates of the Hidden Kingdom with enemies at their heels, and this rule Voronwë would not break, not even at Ulmo's command.

When they were safely away from the Orcs, they approached the River Sirion. Voronwë was worried that the Orcs might still be on their tracks, though, but then the Eagles of Crissaegrim, who were watching the Hidden Kingdom, flew past them, and he knew that the Orcs wouldn't dare to come closer. They found the Ford of Brithiach and crossed Sirion safely.

On the other side they came to an empty river bed. This was what Voronwë had been searching for, the Dry River, which led to the Gates of the Hidden Kingdom. They followed it for many miles, and at last, more than a month after they had left Nevrast, they came to a steep mountain. Here an opening led them into a sort of a tunnel, and Voronwë led Tuor through the dark.

Then they met with Turgon's guards. Voronwe had been sent out by the King, so he would have had the right to return, but he lost that right by bringing a stranger. Both he and the stranger would be taken to the King as prisoners. But when the guards realised that Tuor was a mortal, they were unsure as to whether they ought to slay him immediately.

Tuor then told them that he came on an errand from Ulmo, and that he wanted to speak that errand to Turgon himself. The Captain of the Guard then decided that he couldn't decide on such great matters, and would take them to the Warden of the Great Gate.

They were then led as prisoners through all the seven gates of the Hidden Kingdom, until at the last gate, the Gate of Steel, they met Echtelion, Lord of the Fountains, who was at that time Warden of the Great Gate. Tuor claimed the right to enter as the messenger of the Lord of Waters, and Echtelion saw his cloak and was filled with awe, and opened the Gate.

Then Tuor passed through, and for the first time he saw Gondolin. For a long time he was just looking at it, and then his cloak fell down, and all around him saw the livery of Nevrast which had been left for Ulmo's messenger centuries ago. Then Echtelion declared that it was clear truth that he came from Ulmo.

---

And then Tolkien stopped writing ...

[Varnafindë]

Resources and additional reading

Maps:
On http://larsen-family.us/~1066/silbattles.html you find http://larsen-family.us/~1066/maps/beleriand.jpg, a large map of Beleriand.

At Encyclopedia of Arda you find various small maps with text and comments:

Firth of Drengist (where Tuor first reached the Sea, and then went on through Nevrast to Vinyamar)
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/f/firthofdrengist.html

Seven Gates of Gondolin (which Tuor was led through as a prisoner, until Echtelion accepted him)
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/s/sevengates.html

Gondolin - Turgon’s Hidden Refuge (which Tuor saw from the last gate - and later entered)
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/gondolin.html


Additional reading:
The Silmarillion, chapter 23 (first part)
HoME 2 (Book of Lost Tales Part 2), Fall of Gondolin (first part)


Textual history:
The story of Gondolin and its fall was the first story of the First Age that Tolkien composed. The first version was written in 1916-1917, in the archaic style of writing which Tolkien used then, and has been published in Book of Lost Tales Part 2 (with an extremely complicated textual history). It was read as a paper to the Essay Club of his college in 1920.

Some time between 1926 and 1930 Tolkien wrote a compressed version of the story to be used in what he hoped to be The Silmarillion, and Christopher Tolkien says that his father changed it to fit better with the other changes he had made since it was first written.

Much later he began work on an entirely refashioned account, entitled "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin." It seems very likely that this was written in 1951, when The Lord of the Rings was finished but its publication doubtful. Deeply changed in style and bearings, yet retain*ing many of the essentials of the story written in his youth, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" would have given in fine detail the which legend that constitutes the brief 23rd chapter of the published Silmarillion, but, grievously, he went no further than the coming of Tuor and Voronwë to the last gate and Tuor's sight of Gondolin across the plain of Tumladen. To his reasons for abandoning it there is no clue.

This is the text that is given here. To avoid confusion I have retitled it "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin," since it tells nothing of the fall of the city. As always with my father's writings there are variant readings, and in one short section (the approach to and passage of the river Sirion by Tuor and Voronwë) several competing forms; some minor editorial work has therefore been necessary.

So unlike some of Tolkien's other unfinished tales, which consist only of fragments, this is a largely "complete" story - only that it breaks off before the end. Tolkien had made notes for how it was meant to continue, but he never went back to finish it. Unfortunately.

[Varnafindë]

Comments
Here is where I may be personal.

The story starts with a tragedy - a mother abandons her newborn son to die from grief on her husband's grave. It's told with very little detail and in fact very little emotion - this is history narrative, not a psychological novel. We can only guess at what it must have meant for Tuor to be an orphan nearly at birth. But he seems to have had a good relationship with his foster-father, Annael, who is the one who first tells him about Turgon.

(In the version of the Book of Lost Tales nothing is said about Tuor's parentage, and he's just presented as someone who wanders in the wild until, by Ulmo's will, he stumbles upon the Gate of the Noldor.)

It's interesting how the name Turgon immediately stirs something in Tuor's heart. Is Ulmo already at work, influencing him? The House of Hador, of which Tuor was a descendant, had the favour of the mighty Vala, and Tuor's father had predicted before his death that from Turgon and himself there would come a hope for Middle-earth, if only Gondolin could stand a little longer. Ulmo certainly has a connection to the family, "for in his deep counsels he purposed that they should play great part in his design for the succour of the Exiles".

There's also a nice touch when Tuor is one of Lorgan's slaves - he is the friend of Lorgan's dogs, and they won't attack him when they hunt for him and find him, but "fawn upon him, and then run homeward at his command". I like how he loves the animals.

Then Tuor has his first encounter with the Noldor - which he recognizes by the light of their eyes (I suppose this means that they are come out of Valinor, and not born in Middle-earth). They show him the Gate of the Noldor, and say that "Through darkness you shall come to the light." When they hear that he seeks Turgon, they encourage him because of his family's connection to Ulmo, and say that they don't think their meeting has been by chance.

Interesting tidbit: the Fëanorean lamps are here seen in use. Advanced technology!

More about animals: He is led by birds, first for a few days by three gulls, and then for a few more days by seven swans - and it's said that he loves swans. It's also said that the gulls are especially loved by the Teleri - but the swans are the inspiration for the Teleri's ships, and in the Third Age we see that Galadriel (whose mother was of the Teleri) also has a ship shaped as a swan.

When Tuor comes to the halls of Vinyamar, he has no idea that the arms he finds there, are made for himself. But when he sees the swan's wing emblem, he chooses to take them on and to take upon himself "whatsoever doom they bear". He walks right into what Ulmo has planned for him.

The Book of Lost Tales gives a detailed description of the appearance of Ulmo.

Ulmo, loving all rivers and this one more than most, went thence on foot, robed to the middle in mail like the scales of blue and silver fishes; but his hair was a bluish silver and his beard to his feet was of the same hue, and he bore neither helm nor crown. Beneath his mail fell the skirts of his kirtle of shimmering greens, and of what substance these were woven is not known, but whoso looked into the depths of their subtle colours seemed to behold the faint movements of deep waters shot with the stealthy lights of phosphorescent fish that live in the abyss. Girt was he with a rope of mighty pearls, and he was shod with mighty shoes of stone.

In Unfinished Tales the description is a little different.

A tall crown he wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glimmering in the dusk and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of mighty fish, and in a kirtle of deep green that flashed and flickered with sea-fire as he strode slowly towards the land. In this manner the Dweller of the Deep, whom the Noldor name Ulmo, Lord of Waters, showed himself to Tuor son of Huor of the House of Hador beneath Vinyamar.

I find it interesting that Ulmo sees himself as set somewhat apart from the other Valar.

... in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where dark*ness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World.

In Tuor's acceptance of Ulmo's errand, I'm reminded of Moses, who in the Bible story displays the same attitude of "who am I, that you could use me". Moses is even more hesitant to accept his task, though.

There's an amazing section during the storm after Ulmo's note on his horn, where Tuor sees "all the waters of the world in a great vision", "with the swift sight of the Valar".

And after that, and after his dreams that night, he begins to find Ulmo's predictions beginning to come true. He meets the Elf that Ulmo has sent to help him - and he finds that words are laid in his mouth without his previous knowledge of the facts he speaks, like the name of Voronwë. And Voronwë accepts his claims and accepts his own task as guide for Ulmo's messenger.

Where Voronwë tells about his journey, and how he tarries in the lovely land of Nan-tathren in Spring, it seems that Tolkien has transferred to him something of what was given to Tuor in the Book of Lost Tales.

Thus came [Tuor] soon to that region that has been called Arlisgion "the place of reeds", and this is in those lands that are to the south of Dor Lomin and separated therefrom by the Iron Mountains whose spurs run even to the sea. From those mountains came this river, and of a great clearness and marvellous chill were its waters even at this place. Now this is a river most famous in the histories of Eldar and Noldoli and in all tongues is it named Sirion. Here Tuor rested awhile until driven by desire he arose once ore to journey further and further by many days' marches along the river borders. Full spring had not yet brought summer when he came to a region yet more lovely. Here the song of small birds shrilled about him with a music of loveliness, for there are no birds that sing like the songbirds of the Land of Willows; and to this region of wonder he had now come. Here the river wound in wide curves with low banks through a great plain of the sweetest grass and very long and green; willows of untold age were about its borders, and its wide bosom was strewn with waterlily leaves, whose flowers were not yet in the earliness of the year, but beneath the willows the green swords of the flaglilies were drawn, and sedges stood, and reeds in embattled array. Now there dwelt in these dark places a spirit of whispers, and it whispered to Tuor at dusk and he was loth to depart; and at morn for the glory of the unnumbered buttercups he was yet more loth, and he tarried.

Here saw he the first butterflies and was glad of the sight; and it is said that all butterflies and their kindred were born in the valley of the Land of Willows. Then came the summer and the time of moths and the warm evenings, and Tuor wondered at the multitude of flies, at their buzzing and the droning of the beetles and the hum of bees; and to all these things he gave names of his own, and wove the names into new songs on his old harp; and these songs were softer than his singing of old.

Voronwë also tells Tuor about the Sea - both how dangerous and ruthless it can be, and how "bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside". It's obvious that Voronwë still has some of his sea-longing left.

(TBC)

It seems that Ulmo cared more for Gondolin than for Nargothrond - or maybe the reason was that there was a Princess in Gondolin, and the chance of a union of Elf and Man. This would be part of his plan, even though Tuor's primary task should have been to lead the people of Gondolin safely out and probably down to the Sea by the Mouths of Sirion ...

I like that little crossing of the paths of the two cousins - once, and Turin probably didn't even notice, and then never again ...

Another tidbit: The Fell Winter, to be remembered for years: five months.
In my parts of Norway, that's fairly usual ...

And even in this Fell Winter, the River Sirion doesn't freeze. Not in this version of Tolkien's story, that is - he had another version, which Christopher believes he rejected, where they crossed on the ice instead of by the Ford.

There is racism here - the Guard of the Gate finds that Tuor is a mortal, "for by his eyes I perceive his kin", and names him "one of alien kin". It helps, though, when he claims to be the son of Huor, who with his brother Hurin had been a guest in Gondolin in his youth.

All the seven gates are named and described - they are all beautifully made, real works of art - the artisans of Gondolin must have had lots of time to devote to details!

It's a moving moment at the end, where Tuor finally sees Gondolin. It's the first time the name is used in the text.

And no-one knows why Tolkien, who had made notes for how the story should continue, stopped at that point ...

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

So unlike some of Tolkien's other unfinished tales, which consist only of fragments, this is a largely "complete" story - only that it breaks off before the end. Tolkien had made notes for how it was meant to continue, but he never went back to finish it. Unfortunately.

Unfortunately indeed! It could easily have been one of Tolkien's best stories, IMO, if only he had finished it to the degree he put into The Children of Húrin! But despite Tuor being somewhat more important to the Elvish history than his cousin Túrin, Tolkien apparently preferred Túrin's tragedy, for he worked on that often and repeatedly, unlike Tuor's tale.

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

There's also a nice touch when Tuor is one of Lorgan's slaves - he is the friend of Lorgan's dogs, and they won't attack him when they hunt for him and find him, but "fawn upon him, and then run homeward at his command". I like how he loves the animals.

I liked that too. It reminded me of Beren's tale, how he made friends with the wild animals when he was on the run as well.

Interesting tidbit: the Fëanorean lamps are here seen in use. Advanced technology!

Who needs a simaril? I want one of these toys!

It seems that Ulmo cared more for Gondolin than for Nargothrond - or maybe the reason was that there was a Princess in Gondolin, and the chance of a union of Elf and Man. This would be part of his plan, even though Tuor's primary task should have been to lead the people of Gondolin safely out and probably down to the Sea by the Mouths of Sirion ...

At the time that Tuor went to Gondolin, Nargothrond was already lost. One could argue, perhaps, that the sons of Huor and Húrin alike were given the chance to save an Elven city. But Tuor wasn't burdened with Túrin's pride, nor Morgoth's curse.

Or perhaps Nargothrond had been generally in less danger than Gondolin, without the building of the bridge, they could have stayed unnoticed. Morgoth, too, seems more interested in finding Gondolin than Nargothrond.

And even if Ulmo's plan had been fulfilled entirely to his liking, Gondolin too would still have been lost. Ulmo indicated as much in his words to Turgon. He obviously only had been interested in saving the people, not the city itself. Gondolin -like Nevrast- was already destined for abandonment and the ruin of time.

I like that little crossing of the paths of the two cousins - once, and Turin probably didn't even notice, and then never again ...

It always seemed to me quite an important scene, but an understated one. What if they actually had met and talked? Could Tuor and Voronwë had freed Túrin from the spell of the Dragon? Would they have taken him along, or would Túrin have attacked them? A very powerful 'what if'.

(I will answer the questions at a later stage.)

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Unfortunately indeed! It could easily have been one of Tolkien's best stories, IMO, if only he had finished it to the degree he put into The Children of Húrin! But despite Tuor being somewhat more important to the Elvish history than his cousin Túrin, Tolkien apparently preferred Túrin's tragedy, for he worked on that often and repeatedly, unlike Tuor's tale.

I still wish Christopher would combine it all (UT and BoLT) and publish it as one story, like he did with The Children of Hurin - but it would be more difficult, if only because the style of writing is so vastly different between the two versions.

At the time that Tuor went to Gondolin, Nargothrond was already lost. One could argue, perhaps, that the sons of Huor and Húrin alike were given the chance to save an Elven city. But Tuor wasn't burdened with Túrin's pride, nor Morgoth's curse.

But by the time that Tuor went to Nevrast, I assume it wasn't, though. Ulmo said that he had meant Tuor to go by an easy, pleasant road, in Summer, but because Tuor had tarried so long, this couldn't be. Maybe there would have been time to do something about Nargothrond as well?

On the other hand, he would hardly have had time to lead all the people out of Gondonlin in Summer and still have had time to help his cousin save Nargothrond in Autumn. There's a limit to what can be expected from him ...

And even if Ulmo's plan had been fulfilled entirely to his liking, Gondolin too would still have been lost. Ulmo indicated as much in his words to Turgon. He obviously only had been interested in saving the people, not the city itself. Gondolin -like Nevrast- was already destined for abandonment and the ruin of time.

Yes, Tuor's primary task wasn't to defend the Hidden City, but to help its people to abandon it and to escape to safety. Perhaps to the Isle of Balar, at least to the Mouths of Sirion. There would have been a High King of the Noldor with more experience than young Gil-galad among the Exiles then. Perhaps he could have hindered the Third Kinslaying?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

I still wish Christopher would combine it all (UT and BoLT) and publish it as one story, like he did with The Children of Hurin - but it would be more difficult, if only because the style of writing is so vastly different between the two versions.

It would be nice, but I reckon the style differences would be the least of his problems. He would have to write a lot of text that Tolkien only vaguely described, such as the actual interview of Tuor and Turgon, or the courtship of Idril.

But by the time that Tuor went to Nevrast, I assume it wasn't, though. Ulmo said that he had meant Tuor to go by an easy, pleasant road, in Summer, but because Tuor had tarried so long, this couldn't be. Maybe there would have been time to do something about Nargothrond as well?

I don't think the time Tuor tarried would be an issue. As long as he stayed put in Nevrast, I assume Ulmo would have been able to give Nargothrond his full attention. Unless there wasn't anything he could do. Ulmo mentioned to Tuor that his influence was waning in the rivers, perhaps he had already been withdrawn out of the Narog and could do nothing more for Nargothrond.

There would have been a High King of the Noldor with more experience than young Gil-galad among the Exiles then. Perhaps he could have hindered the Third Kinslaying?

You make a good point, with Turgon still around, the Oath of the Fëanoreans may have remained dormant.

[Valandil]

I don't think Turgon leaving Gondolin and joining the other Noldor to lead them would have actually helped things. Help had to eventually come from the West - and the West was not going to help until everything had pretty much gone to pot. If Turgon had brought everyone from Gondolin down to the last refuge of the Beleriand Elves on Balar - it would have only prolonged and protracted the decline.

[Varnafindë]

Points of discussion

1. Is there reason to believe that Tuor's life would have been different if his mother had stayed with him in the Grey-elves' dwellings? Was she not able to control and conquer her grief?

2. How much is Ulmo the force behind Tuor's decisions? If not for Ulmo, would Tuor have sought Turgon at all, just for the debt he might have had to Tuor's father?

3. The Sea is a theme that often recurs in Tolkien's writings. Do you see similarities and differences between the rising of Tuor's sea-longing and that of other characters in other stories?

4. Are gulls and swans especially connected to Ulmo, the way Eagles are connected to Manwë? Are they Ulmo's messengers to guide Tuor on his way?

5. Tuor sees the swan's wing emblem as a token to take the "arms unto myself, and upon myself whatsoever doom they bear". Is this out of a sense of duty, or of a sense of adventure - or is he merely following his fate?

6. In what other instances can we see Ulmo opposed to his brethren and helping the Children of Iluvatar? Is even Ulmo bound by fate?

7. Is Tuor likely to understand what Ulmo means by "bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness", and "until the rising of the Star"? Is his dream -

a vision of an isle, and in the midst of it was a steep mountain, and behind it the sun went down, and shadows sprang into the sky; but above it there shone a single dazzling star

- likely to help him? Does it matter if he doesn't understand?

8. Why would Tolkien move the details of tarrying in Nan-tathren from Tuor to Voronwë? Is he afraid of showing Tuor as irresponsible?

(TBC)

9. Do you think anything would have happened differently - for either of them - if Tuor had talked to Turin?

10. The Eagles serve as guards for Turgon - and as messengers. Do you see similarities and differences between their role here and the role of other Eagles in other of Tolkien's stories?

11. Elemmakil says that he "should" slay the stranger of alien kin. Why would it be more necessary to slay a mortal who found the secret, than an Elf who did the same thing?

12. Do they see Tuor's position as son of Huor as less important than his task as messenger of Ulmo?

13. Do you agree that Tuor's intended task was to lead the people of Gondolin to safety immediately? What could have been different if Turgon had accepted the message from Ulmo?

[Earniel]

Thank you for the very extensive chapter review, Varna! I'll be reading the chapter tonight (hopefully) so I can refresh my memory and join in the actual discussion.

[Valandil]

To respond selectively:

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Points of discussion

6. In what other instances can we see Ulmo opposed to his brethren and helping the Children of Iluvatar? Is even Ulmo bound by fate?

7. Is Tuor likely to understand what Ulmo means by "bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness", and "until the rising of the Star"? Is his dream - - likely to help him? Does it matter if he doesn't understand?

9. Do you think anything would have happened differently - for either of them - if Tuor had talked to Turin?

13. Do you agree that Tuor's intended task was to lead the people of Gondolin to safety immediately? What could have been different if Turgon had accepted the message from Ulmo?

6. I think Ulmo is consistently more benevolent toward Elves (and then to Men) than the other Valar - especially the other chief Valar. I think he's not really trying to go against his brethren just for the sake of doing so. But I think he's doing what he thinks he is supposed to do - maybe he even thinks he is doing as his brethren should be doing, and that they're shirking their duty (by just resigning Middle Earth to Melkor).

7. Interesting about the star - especially since you take it as 'the Land of the Star' - Numenor, which was first ruled by one of Tuor's grandsons. I take it as a reference to Earendil - who was the son of Tuor and wore a silmaril bound to his forhead, and it gave light as a star - and indeed was subsequently set in the heavens as a star. The hope and the star that was to be born of Huor's and Turgon's seed, I have always taken to be Earendil, who was the last hope of both Elves and Men, for he was able to plead the cause of both races to the Valar.

9. Oh goodness - if Turin and Tuor had stopped to talk - even if it had not come to blows (even maybe a fight to the death for one of them), it would have messed up everything. If they had compared notes, at least one of them and maybe both, would never have completed the tasks they needed to perform. Yet - for their own sakes, they would have each had more peace of mind, and a shared kinship with a cousin who was caught up in the great movings of things just as they were.

13. I think Tuor's great task was to have a son with Idril. Not a very bad lot in life, I would suppose.

As a spin-off point to one of yours above, I offer the following:

6A. Bringing up 'fate' in regard to Ulmo is very interesting - because in this story, it makes me think of the role of fate in regard to Tuor. We see in his life the workings of fate - and yet, Men were supposed to be outside of the dictates of fate - at least within the knowledge of the Valar. The Elves were more tied to fate, and Men had more 'free agency', so to speak - at least as I understood things. Maybe it's just as well to examine the role that fate played in Tuor's life, and to ask the questions about whether he was bound to these things, or if he was just generally of a cooperative nature.

[Valandil]

Other observations:

1. I was always quite taken with the progression of the seven gates to Gondolin. In fact - I was quite surprised this time through at how little of the story this consisted of.

2. Oh how I wish JRRT had brought this story to conclusion in this fully fleshed-out form. It would have been interesting to us all. But maybe he felt unequal to the task - that to whatever extent he detailed it, it would have then fallen short of the imagination of the reader. Or maybe he thought it better to leave it as a bit more mysterious - a truly untold story, except in rudimentary form. Or... maybe it just fell by the wayside with all the other things he had going on in his life, his work and this additional obsession of his.

[Galin]

With respect to comments in Valandil's 2nd section, Christopher Tolkien expressed the view in the foreword to Morgoth's Ring (repeated in The War of the Jewels) that:

'despair of publication, at least in the form that he regarded as essential (i.e. the conjunction of The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings in a single work) was the fundamental cause of the collapse of this new endeavour; and that this break destroyed all prospect that what may be called 'the older Silmarillion' would ever be completed.'

Tolkien had hopes that Collins was going to publish both the Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings, but this broke down, and Allen and Unwin agreed only to The Lord of the Rings (at this time).

These circumstances with publishers were arguably a large reason why the new Fall of Gondolin, among other works begun after The Lord of the Rings was 'finished' but not published, remained incomplete. Of course Tolkien could have returned to these things later, but soon enough he was overwhelmed by other factors (CJRT notes them), and so on; and as we know, he never did get to complete his updated (long prose) Fall of Gondolin of the early 1950s

Although one can dream the rest of it is still hiding somewhere, still somehow hidden from even CJRT.

Well, it's a dream

[jammi567]

Some observations of mine:

I quickly glanced through the relevent chapter in The Silmarillion after reading the summery posted, and I was really shocked to see how edited down the chapter was. I mean, within three pages (HarperCollins paperback edition, 1999), the text reaches the point where the draft ends. It's just a shame that some more details couldn't be added in, such as why Tour was left with Annael in the first place, with no mention with what happened to Rian.

I mean, I'm not aware of there being any limit of pages or word count, so some of the details from the early account, and the account described here, surely could have been added. Not everthing, of course, but some details.

Anyways, to the questions.

Is there reason to believe that Tuor's life would have been different if his mother had stayed with him in the Grey-elves' dwellings? Was she not able to control and conquer her grief?

I think it's mainly used to contrast the strength of will between the two sisters, and thus the difference between their sons. Whilst Rian gave up any hope she might have had for her husband's return, (despite no news to the contry), Morwen had hope that Hurin was still alive somewhere, even if he couldn't reach her because he was captured by the enemy.

I'm personally not sure how Rian would have affected Tour's life had she still been alive. We don't have much information on her personality, although I suppose she could have recommened some people he could go to if he was stuck (like his uncle, aunt and/or cousin, for example).

9. Oh goodness - if Turin and Tuor had stopped to talk - even if it had not come to blows (even maybe a fight to the death for one of them), it would have messed up everything. If they had compared notes, at least one of them and maybe both, would never have completed the tasks they needed to perform. Yet - for their own sakes, they would have each had more peace of mind, and a shared kinship with a cousin who was caught up in the great movings of things just as they were.

I'm not sure if Tuor talking/fighting Turin would have affected anything on the former's side - I have to admit, I'm not totally sure at what point of Turin's timeline that glimse happened, so it might have effected something. But on the whole, I don't think it would have affected anything, as Turin's story was much more personal then either Beren's or Tuor's.

It didn't seem to affect world events that much anyway, except for the destruction of Nargothrond , which seems to be inevitable anyway (as with all the Elven relms and cities).

It always seemed to me quite an important scene, but an understated one. What if they actually had met and talked? Could Tuor and Voronwë had freed Túrin from the spell of the Dragon? Would they have taken him along, or would Túrin have attacked them? A very powerful 'what if'.

The only things that could break the spell, IIRC, was Glaurung himself, or killing the dragon. So I don't think Tuor or Voronwë could have broken it, no matter how much they tried.

10. The Eagles serve as guards for Turgon - and as messengers. Do you see similarities and differences between their role here and the role of other Eagles in other of Tolkien's stories?

Well, as least their not acting like Deus Ex Machina's (Battle of the Five Armies; Battle at the Morannon etc)! I know that Tolkien tried to limit their use, and explain why they turned up when they did, but still, you know.

11. Elemmakil says that he "should" slay the stranger of alien kin. Why would it be more necessary to slay a mortal who found the secret, than an Elf who did the same thing?

I suppose because men betrayed Elves at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, and the Kinslayers (at least some of them) were trying to patch things up with the other Elves.

Wow, longest post I've made on this forum yet!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

1. Is there reason to believe that Tuor's life would have been different if his mother had stayed with him in the Grey-elves' dwellings? Was she not able to control and conquer her grief?

I don't think Tuor's life would have been all that different. Unless RÃ*an had as head-strong a character as Morwen, as Jammi pointed out. We can see how Túrin's mind was partially shaped by Morwen, if RÃ*an had lived long enough, Tuor might have been a different character. But I doubt the events of his life would have been that different. Much of the things that befall him are influenced directly by Ulmo.

2. How much is Ulmo the force behind Tuor's decisions? If not for Ulmo, would Tuor have sought Turgon at all, just for the debt he might have had to Tuor's father?

He might have sought it as a safe haven, if he tired of the lonely life in the wild. But I sincerely doubt he would have found it without Ulmo's directions, nor survived in the unlikely event that he found Gondolin all by himself.

4. Are gulls and swans especially connected to Ulmo, the way Eagles are connected to Manwë? Are they Ulmo's messengers to guide Tuor on his way?

Somewhere in the text they speak of the great birds of the west specifically. I don't think these birds are on the same level as the Eagles, intelligence-wise. But they have a strong association with the Western shores, and therefor with Ulmo, but also Ossë.

7. Is Tuor likely to understand what Ulmo means by "bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness", and "until the rising of the Star"? Is his dream - - likely to help him? Does it matter if he doesn't understand?

Tuor never questions Ulmo's directions or anything strange that happens to him, at least never beyond the practical level. I therefore don't think Tuor ever sought to understand what he was doing at Ulmo's command and what the consequences would be.

8. Why would Tolkien move the details of tarrying in Nan-tathren from Tuor to Voronwë? Is he afraid of showing Tuor as irresponsible?

Or perhaps he thought it more likely that an Elf would be able to appreciate the beauty of the place better than a Man would. I think it was a good move, story-wise. It shows that even Sea-Elves (or descendants of them as Voronwë was) don't think the Sea is the end all of all beauty and marvel. I like that. I think the focus on the Sea, already from Tuor's end, would otherwise have been too heavy.

11. Elemmakil says that he "should" slay the stranger of alien kin. Why would it be more necessary to slay a mortal who found the secret, than an Elf who did the same thing?

Up until this point, Men had often readily worked together with Morgoth, sometimes by fear, but sometimes out of a desire to profit from it. I can see why an Elf who has spend so much time in seclusion in their isolated city, would see a mortal as a more immediate danger.

12. Do they see Tuor's position as son of Huor as less important than his task as messenger of Ulmo?

Tuor's parentage may have spared his life, but I do think it was his task as Ulmo's messenger that elevated his status in the Gondolin society significantly, so that his union with Idril was at all possible.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I don't think Turgon leaving Gondolin and joining the other Noldor to lead them would have actually helped things. Help had to eventually come from the West - and the West was not going to help until everything had pretty much gone to pot. If Turgon had brought everyone from Gondolin down to the last refuge of the Beleriand Elves on Balar - it would have only prolonged and protracted the decline.

Ulmo told Turgon as much in their last talk. Something about not putting too much faith in the work of his hands, that hope for the Noldor would only come from the West. Therefore Turgon's main 'task' in Ulmo's plan seems mostly to be the forefather of Eärendil, the messenger of the Two Kindred.

Even if Turgon had heeded Ulmo's instructions, the Gondolindrim forces could not hope to defeat Morgoth on their own. That much was evident, and there were no strong allies left.

But still a number of things could have been different, perhaps not better on the whole. But more Elves might have survived for instance, if the entire population of Gondolin had left the city before its discovery.

Originally Posted by Valandil

1. I was always quite taken with the progression of the seven gates to Gondolin.

They were quite spectacular. Although I wonder whatever possessed the Elves to put such masterpieces right in the path they expected potential enemies to take. Why put so much work into something that will likely be destroyed, or ruined in the time you actually need it? It makes you wonder what the rest of Gondolin had to look like then.

But maybe he felt unequal to the task - that to whatever extent he detailed it, it would have then fallen short of the imagination of the reader.
Or maybe he thought it better to leave it as a bit more mysterious - a truly untold story, except in rudimentary form. Or... maybe it just fell by the wayside with all the other things he had going on in his life, his work and this additional obsession of his.

I don't know, the description of the Seven Gates certainly defeats anything I could have come up with. Perhaps the story just didn't appeal to him that much. Tuor never fights his fate, as his cousin did. In a way, Túrin is the more human character, I can sort of see why a writer would be more interested in taking on such a story, even if it is a veritable tragedy on all levels, than a story where fate is neither to be questioned nor challenged.

Perhaps Tolkien was more interested in using Gondolin as a plot device throughout the history of the First Age, a more mythical than real place, that would lose its mystique if explained or described too well. Elements can be spoilt in stories if over-used or over-explained.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

You make a good point, with Turgon still around, the Oath of the Fëanoreans may have remained dormant.

Originally Posted by Valandil

If Turgon had brought everyone from Gondolin down to the last refuge of the Beleriand Elves on Balar - it would have only prolonged and protracted the decline.

I don't think the Oath of the Fëanoreans would have remained dormant - after they had known for a while that Elwing held the Silmaril in the settlement at the mouths of Sirion, even Maedhros' remorse for what had happened in Doriath, was not enough to stop him and his brothers from trying to claim the jewel. But perhaps the stronger force, if the Elves from Gondolin had been at Sirion, might have given the fight a different outcome, and have spared some lives.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I take it as a reference to Earendil - who was the son of Tuor and wore a silmaril bound to his forhead, and it gave light as a star - and indeed was subsequently set in the heavens as a star. The hope and the star that was to be born of Huor's and Turgon's seed, I have always taken to be Earendil, who was the last hope of both Elves and Men, for he was able to plead the cause of both races to the Valar.

I agree about the reference to Eärendil, and that he was the hope and the star. Ulmo himself had tried to appeal to Manwë on behalf of the people of Middle-earth, but to no avail. The appeal had to come from one who was of the people of those who needed help - and of both races.

The silmaril wasn't set in the heavens, though, was it? I think Eärendil was sailing across the heaven with the silmaril on his ship, and that was why it would look like a star (probably what we would call Venus).

9. Oh goodness - if Turin and Tuor had stopped to talk - even if it had not come to blows (even maybe a fight to the death for one of them), it would have messed up everything.

Why would they fight?
Hit first and ask questions later, is that what you mean?

But it's possible that they might have messed up their duties. Turin needed to find the dragon and kill it. And Tuor needed to find Gondolin. If they had tried to cooperate, they might have left one task unfinished.

13. I think Tuor's great task was to have a son with Idril. Not a very bad lot in life, I would suppose.

That was his most important task - he should have rescued some more of the Gondolin Elves as well, if Turgon hadn't refused to be rescued - but even so, it was necessary for him to have a child to combine the two races.

No, I don't think either that he would resent that task ...

Originally Posted by jammi567

I quickly glanced through the relevent chapter in The Silmarillion after reading the summery posted, and I was really shocked to see how edited down the chapter was.

When I first made some mental notes about how to do the summary, and then read the Silmarillion version afterwards, I thought that Tolkien had written the summary I had been planning!

Wow, longest post I've made on this forum yet!

You're welcome!

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Tuor never questions Ulmo's directions or anything strange that happens to him, at least never beyond the practical level. I therefore don't think Tuor ever sought to understand what he was doing at Ulmo's command and what the consequences would be.

Turgon's main 'task' in Ulmo's plan seems mostly to be the forefather of Eärendil, the messenger of the Two Kindred.

Even if Turgon had heeded Ulmo's instructions, the Gondolindrim forces could not hope to defeat Morgoth on their own. That much was evident, and there were no strong allies left.

But still a number of things could have been different, perhaps not better on the whole. But more Elves might have survived for instance, if the entire population of Gondolin had left the city before its discovery.

I agree that Tuor needs no explanation or understanding to accept Ulmo's task. He just does as he is told ...

And even though Turgon gets the offer to escape from Gondolin, I agree that it's less important for him to accept it than to allow his daughter to marry Tuor. And here he did not fail.

I think that Turgon might have defended the settlement of Sirion against the Fëanoreans - but you are right that they couldn't have hoped to defeat Morgoth. They needed the Valar for that.

Perhaps the story just didn't appeal to him that much. Tuor never fights his fate, as his cousin did. In a way, Túrin is the more human character, I can sort of see why a writer would be more interested in taking on such a story, even if it is a veritable tragedy on all levels, than a story where fate is neither to be questioned nor challenged.

Perhaps because it is a tragedy. Tolkien was interested in the stories from the Finnish Kalevala, where you can find the direct inspiration for Turin. A Tragic Hero is great stuff for literature.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Perhaps the story just didn't appeal to him that much. Tuor never fights his fate, as his cousin did. In a way, Túrin is the more human character, I can sort of see why a writer would be more interested in taking on such a story, even if it is a veritable tragedy on all levels, than a story where fate is neither to be questioned nor challenged.

Perhaps Tolkien was more interested in using Gondolin as a plot device throughout the history of the First Age, a more mythical than real place, that would lose its mystique if explained or described too well. Elements can be spoilt in stories if over-used or over-explained.

There are a number of pieces that Tolkien didn't finish at this time however, including Túrin's story and the tale of Beren and Lúthien -- Tolkien also began an updated long prose version of Beren and Lúthien for instance, but abandoned it early as well, and never finished it. I tend to agree with Christopher Tolkien here: despair of publication in the early 1950s was a crucial factor at this time, and soon enough JRRT would have to continue work on The Lord of the Rings for example, getting it ready for publication along with preparing the Appendices.

There is evidence dated after the early 1950s that Tolkien intended his legendarium to include long prose versions of the Great Tales, including in his very late work on Maeglin: 'Thus at this very late date my father was still holding to the hope of an entirely rewritten story of the Fall of Gondolin, of which so little had actually been done (and those parts some twenty years before).'

This is in reference to the long prose version (Unfinished Tales), not a Quenta Silmarillion version. This quote is from CJRT's commentary to Maeglin from The War of The Jewels.

[Varnafindë]

No, the Niebelungen saga is Germanic - and closer to an inspiration for LotR, I would say.

You can find Kalevala at the Gutenberg project - http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/5186. Kullervo is the model for Turin.

This, Kullervo's frank confession:
"Infamous the tale I bring thee,
My confession is dishonor:
On the way I met a maiden,
Met thy long-lost, wayward daughter,
Did not recognize my sister,
Fatal was the sin committed!

Kullerwoinen, wicked wizard,
Grasps the handle of his broadsword,
Asks the blade this simple question:
"Tell me, O my blade of honor,
Dost thou wish to drink my life-blood,
Drink the blood of Kullerwoinen?"
Thus his trusty sword makes answer,
Well divining his intentions:
Why should I not drink thy life-blood,
Blood of guilty Kullerwoinen,
Since I feast upon the worthy,
Drink the life-blood of the righteous?"

There's less drama in Tuor's life ...

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

You can find Kalevala at the Gutenberg project - http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/5186. Kullervo is the model for Turin.

Oooh, that's even better. Thanks.

There's less drama in Tuor's life ...

Seriously?

[Varnafindë]

Perhaps not less drama, only different ... not quite so much personal tragedy.

[Tessar]

Some of the questions I couldn't really answer, but I tried to do my best with the ones that I could . This was a great chapter! I finished it a few weeks ago, so some of the details are a tad fuzzy, but these were the overall impressions that I can remember.

1. Is there reason to believe that Tuor's life would have been different if his mother had stayed with him in the Grey-elves' dwellings? Was she not able to control and conquer her grief?
That's a hard one. It really sounds as though, to borrow from the next question, that Ulmo has been guiding Tuor (or at least attempting to--with limited success?) for a very long time. How much of his actions are due to his lineage (heroic father) vs. his 'foster father', vs. Ulmo's influence? It seems to me that Ulmo probably has a great deal to do with it because the chapter is always talking about how Tuor is guided by his longings and desires. Some of the things he is longing for are obviously things that have not been brought to his attention by his foster father, which makes me think Ulmo must have had a hand in it.

2. How much is Ulmo the force behind Tuor's decisions? If not for Ulmo, would Tuor have sought Turgon at all, just for the debt he might have had to Tuor's father?
I'm not sure that I really have an opinion about whether he would have or not, but I think without Ulmo's assistance he would either not have found the gates (without Voronwe being sent to guide him), or if he had found the gates the elves who guarded them would have killed him as an intruder.

4. Are gulls and swans especially connected to Ulmo, the way Eagles are connected to Manwë? Are they Ulmo's messengers to guide Tuor on his way?
I think they are. Most likely Ulmo could use any creature (at least any creature related to water or the sea?) but the swans and gulls seem symbolic, and many of the things that take place in this story are related to ritual, tradition (and the breaking thereof), and symbolism (such as the designs of the gates).

5. Tuor sees the swan's wing emblem as a token to take the "arms unto myself, and upon myself whatsoever doom they bear". Is this out of a sense of duty, or of a sense of adventure - or is he merely following his fate?
I think a great deal of it may have to do with the 'directing' of Ulmo. The arms seem to be a symbol of might (and perhaps have some 'aura' of their own, unrelated to the wearer?) to the elves. The armor is also like an emblem or badge to announce that Tuor is doing the work of Ulmo. Can we also assume that the closer to the sea (Ulmo) that Tuor got, the stronger of an influence Ulmo was able to have on him? This could have been almost a direct influence by Ulmo, to not only guide him to the armor but also guide him to put it on. Is it also symbolic of Ulmo's reach that the cave filled so far with water?

10. The Eagles serve as guards for Turgon - and as messengers. Do you see similarities and differences between their role here and the role of other Eagles in other of Tolkien's stories?
This I'm not sure about, but I will say that it seems interesting that all of the messengers/guides (with the exception of Voronwe, of course) have been birds.

11. Elemmakil says that he "should" slay the stranger of alien kin. Why would it be more necessary to slay a mortal who found the secret, than an Elf who did the same thing?
The elves seem to be a bit xenophobic in a way... maybe racist would be a better term? I think both are a bit too strong, but I think it might be fair to say that the elves have a general distrust, or are at least wary, of humans. Is there a fear that the hearts of men can be turned too easily, and that a human/mortal could be turned to betray them where an elf would be less likely to do so?

12. Do they see Tuor's position as son of Huor as less important than his task as messenger of Ulmo?

I feel like they might be related. I think because Tuor is the son of a mighty man, Huor, that might be why Ulmo chose him. But I'm not sure that his father has much to do with him honestly... he never knew his father or mother, but it seems like he's been guided by Ulmo for years.

Could his orphaning be a direct attempt by Tolkien to release him from any responsibility to lineage? As an orphan, it seems like he's free to become more devoted entirely to doing the task Ulmo sets him.