Stupid White Men

[afro-elf]

Anyone read this?

[Curunír]

Yep.

Michael Moore must become president of the USA! He's got it right about that "cowboy from Hell". He must keep up the good work!

[afro-elf]

He is a little sensationalistic and he does play with is numbers in a interesting way by mixing % and total when convient.
But, I do think his heart is in the right place,

[jerseydevil]

He should be drawn and quartered and his head stuck on a pole.

[Curunír]

Because he's telling the truth?
Or is it because he is not a patriot?

I believe in the freedom of speech

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by CurunÃ*r
Because he's telling the truth?
Or is it because he is not a patriot?

I believe in the freedom of speech

He can have freedom of speech - he has a right to say what he wants. But most of the stuff he does is senationalised and a lot of his facts are twisted or taken out of context. Many people believe him because he supports their established beliefs. I used to watch him (he had a show on TV) and then I started looking into some of the things he was saying.

I think there should be a disclaimer on his movies and books. 90% of this is fictionalized and sensationalized. It is for pure entertainment purposes only and to make the rest of the world feel good they don't live in America.

[GrayMouser]

For a few examples check out

http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20020403.html

BTW, spinsanity is neither right nor left - they attack everybody equally

[afro-elf]

Thanks for the link GM.

[Ruinel]

I think it's well known that M. Moore is a satirist, I don't think many people take his statements as facts. Do they? :confusion:

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I think it's well known that M. Moore is a satirist, I don't think many people take his statements as facts. Do they? :confusion:

I've heard many people take what he says as fact. Especially Bowling for Columbine - they think that is actually a factual documentary.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I've heard many people take what he says as fact. Especially Bowling for Columbine - they think that is actually a factual documentary.

I still need to rent that movie. I still haven't seen it.

[GrayMouser]

Well, a lot of the things that Moore says are presented as straight facts- he builds his satire on them, but he makes claims that are just not true.

OTOH looks like he was right on the evacuation of the bin Laden family and other Saudis just after 9/11, even though his claim was roundly criticised at the time.

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
He should be drawn and quartered and his head stuck on a pole.

Your desire to silence someone who disagrees with you by killing him is, frankly, counter to the values of the America that I swore to defend. Please do not use the flag I defended to give credence to your vitriol. Thank you. If we catch you or anyone like you putting such ideas in action you will be jailed for life. Is that understood?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Your desire to silence someone who disagrees with you by killing him is, frankly, counter to the values of the America that I swore to defend. Please do not use the flag I defended to give credence to your vitriol. Thank you. If we catch you or anyone like you putting such ideas in action you will be jailed for life. Is that understood?

America also stands for allowing people to state their opinion - or is that not allowed in your America? Michael Moore has as much right to say what he feels - but I have a right to say what I think - however offensive you may find it. If you really think I seriously mean he should be drawn and quartered - then you have a lot to learn. I don't need a lecture from you on what this country stands for. Is that understood?

By the way - if you have ever read any of my other 4,000 posts or even had any remote idea to how I feel - you will know that I will defend his rights to say how he feels - as I have in the past of many people I disagree with. The difference I feel toward Michael Moore is that he twists facts and takes them out of context and then presents them in "pseudo-documentaries" as fact. I however do not truly want him drawn and quartered - I just think his crap should be labeled as fiction so people don't get confused by his propaganda. I'd love to hear what you think my "kind" is - since it is obvious you have no idea how I feel or what I think - other than by one statement - so get off your high horse.

[Elfhelm]

Read this, please. It contains our most treasured values. You don't want me to lecture you, so perhaps you'll read something from one of our founding fathers.

"During the contest of opinion through which we have passed the animation of discussions and of exertions has sometimes worn an aspect which might impose on strangers unused to think freely and to speak and to write what they think; but this being now decided by the voice of the nation, announced according to the rules of the Constitution, all will, of course, arrange themselves under the will of the law, and unite in common efforts for the common good. All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression. Let us, then, fellow-citizens, unite with one heart and one mind. Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things. And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions. During the throes and convulsions of the ancient world, during the agonizing spasms of infuriated man, seeking through blood and slaughter his long-lost liberty, it was not wonderful that the agitation of the billows should reach even this distant and peaceful shore; that this should be more felt and feared by some and less by others, and should divide opinions as to measures of safety. But every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. We have called by different names brethren of the same principle. We are all Republicans, we are all Federalists. If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. I know, indeed, that some honest men fear that a republican government can not be strong, that this Government is not strong enough; but would the honest patriot, in the full tide of successful experiment, abandon a government which has so far kept us free and firm on the theoretic and visionary fear that this Government, the world's best hope, may by possibility want energy to preserve itself? I trust not. I believe this, on the contrary, the strongest Government on earth. I believe it the only one where every man, at the call of the law, would fly to the standard of the law, and would meet invasions of the public order as his own personal concern. Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."

from Jefferson's 1st inaugural address

So go ahead and spout your intolerance. I shouldn't even have to give it a name, since most freedom loving people know it for what it is. So again, I ask you not to use the flag I swore to defend to borrow prestige for your personal opinions.

p.s. I can't bring myself to read 4,000 similar posts. I can get that from right-wing extremist talk radio, if I really wanted it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elfhelm

So go ahead and spout your intolerance. I shouldn't even have to give it a name, since most freedom loving people know it for what it is. So again, I ask you not to use the flag I swore to defend to borrow prestige for your personal opinions.

Please tell me what my PERSONAL opinions are, I'm not sure I know them. I'm sure you will get it wrong - because so far you have given me a lecture that I do not need and that any of my FRIENDS would tell you that you are preaching to the wrong person. I also repeatedly say that Jackson should be drawn and quartered for his butchering of Lord of the Rings. Are you so ignorant to think I mean it?

p.s. I can't bring myself to read 4,000 similar posts. I can get that from right-wing extremist talk radio, if I really wanted it.

Actually - I'm not right winged. But you're too blind to know how I feel about things - because you have your blinders on. You don't even know me - so as I will say it again - get off your high horse.

So please just go back to defending the flag against the people who actually WANT to strict people freedom - because you are attacking the wrong person.I continue to defend the black panther on the corner of 42nd street's right to give his speeches on the evils of the white man and all other people to have free speech. If you want to give someone a speech about something - give to someone who you ACTUALLY know is SERIOUS about drawing and quartering someone for something they believe.

Also - for your information - I know about the founding of this country and I do read Jefferson. I have studied the founding of America. Again if you bothered to look - you will see that I repeatedly stick up for people's rights to say things I do not agree with along with all other freedoms we enjoy - such as the KKK or the Black Panthers. If you want to go on about this - contact me through e-mail, PM or AIM.

[Ruinel]

Ok... enough is enough.

This little banter back and for is not productive to the thread. So what if JD dislikes the views of this author. He has a right to his opinion. Just like you do, Elfhelm.

I can't stand PJ. I've even said he should be violently tortured and then murdered (and you don't even know what I've said about him privately to people). Does this mean I'm going to go to his house, drag him off into the quiet, lonely woods and do so? (Burying his bloody body in a shallow grave.) No, it doesn't. Just like I'm quite sure that JD isn't going to draw and quarter Moore.

Furthermore, JD is correct. I do not agree with all of JD's views, as he does not agree with all of mine. (Many times we actually do agree on some things. Imagine that! ) And it is obvious that you, Elfhelm, do not agree with JD on this particular thread. However, I have seen his posts. And he does repeatedly defend the right of people to free speech, whatever their views. On this topic, Freedom of Speech, you both agree.

[Sister Golden Hair]

As a mooter, I have to agree with everything Ruinel has said above. As an Entmoot admin, I would hate to have to close this thread, okay?

[Elfhelm]

Ummm... exactly what would merit closing this thread?

Ru, at issue is the use of the flag. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. On that we all agree. But when one group seizes the flag and waves it while vehemently stating their opinions, we have a problem.

This is an international forum. I strongly dislike the use of our flag by people who do not represent all of us. They give the false impression to the rest of the world that we all agree with their factionalized opinions. And I took my oath and did my term of service to defend that flag. I am really sick of seeing it used by bloodthirsty people.

That does not warrant locking any thread, in my opinion.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Ru, at issue is the use of the flag. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. On that we all agree. But when one group seizes the flag and waves it while vehemently stating their opinions, we have a problem.

This is an international forum. I strongly dislike the use of our flag by people who do not represent all of us. They give the false impression to the rest of the world that we all agree with their factionalized opinions. And I took my oath and did my term of service to defend that flag. I am really sick of seeing it used by bloodthirsty people.

I have a RIGHT to honor this country and carry the flag if I SO CHOOSE. Now I think you should REALLY get over yourself. My brother is CURRENTLY in the military, as was my father and my grandfather. So please give your rhetoric a rest.

If you have a problem with my avatar by the way - you can kiss my a$$.