How many people would make up a knights retinue in literature and reality?

afro-elf · 10-22-2003, 07:30 AM

How many people would make up a knights retinue in literature and reality?

What would their jobs and titles be?

Guillaume le Maréchal · 10-22-2003, 05:57 PM

I’m not sure what you mean by a retinue. If you mean followers, squires and such, I imagine it would be determined by all kinds of factors.

A typical knight of the 12th century would be a “young man,” someone on the poor end of the system of primogeniture--a penniless, landless, and otherwise devoid of income younger son of a feudal lord or some other noble. These knights were basically thrown into the world with only their training in the profession of arms, and sometimes without even armor, weapon or horse. These knights found business as mercenaries, and as such they rarely traveled about by themselves, but in the company of others of equal station. These companies could be very large, and some, especially one in Italy, numbered over a thousand well armed and well trained, ready to fight mercenary knights. These companies would be accompanied by the various tradesmen and merchants one would expect, such as blacksmiths and armorers, victual, horse, and bridle merchants, and, of course, prostitutes.

The popularity of the tournament grew during the 12th century giving many of these knights added work. In this case, knights traveled together in companies or teams. A knight on his own would have a difficult time being successful in the tournament. (Actual medieval combat was a team effort, despite the bravado of contemporary literature.) Even if a knight was splendidly successful at a particular tournament, he often as not left the tournament just as penniless as he came. One of the most important aspects of chivalry was largesse, or generosity, and this trait of the knight was what made him truly a gentleman. Knights made it a point to use whatever wealth they came by for feasts and lavishing gifts on their comrades, or simply giving it away. Despite popular misconceptions, the poorest class in medieval days was probably the knight.

Now a landed noble on a military campaign would probably be surrounded by as many servants as he could afford to bring along with him. Given the tremendous amount of resources required to sustain a rather small medieval army on campaign, the number of servants would be kept as small as possible. However, in some circumstances, these nobles were accompanied by their wives and children, and large portion of their household staff. In combat the well off landed knight would have at least one servant to act as a shield bearer to provide spare shields or lances (long spears), and fetch a new mount for his master in the likely eventuality that his master’s initial horse would die (in most circumstances the medieval battlefield was littered with far more dead horses than dead soldiers). Ideally the knight would have another servant to help him take into custody captured enemy knights (to be ransomed later), or his enemy’s horses (to be used, ransomed, or if things got desperate enough, to eat later). Medieval armies would have been accompanied by more peasant foot soldiers, archers and engineers (all of whom may have belonged to their own mercenary class, though historians are in disagreement about this). Any medieval army on campaign would have a train of followers made up of priests or mendicants, the usual crowd of blacksmiths and armorers, victual, horse and bridle merchants, and, of course, prostitutes and thieves.

Guillaume le Maréchal · 10-22-2003, 07:11 PM

These two websites might be of use to you for your research:

De Re Militari

The Knighthood, Chivalry, Tournaments Resource Library

***Valandil*** · 10-24-2003, 04:13 AM

G le M - you make it sound so terribly UNROMANTIC!

Totally shifts my view of "Ivanhoe"

Guillaume le Maréchal · 10-24-2003, 04:50 PM

LOL, Valandil.

But, the less romantic version of the historical chevalier wasn’t necessarily devoid of adventure or excitement.

The story of William Marshal is a case in point.

He was the younger son of a noble, taken as a hostage by King Stephen who threatened to hurl the young boy against the walls of his father’s castle if William’s father didn’t come to terms with the king, but Stephen relented even though William’s father claimed that he still possessed the forge from whence William came and he could make a better one yet. William survived because of King Stephen’s pity, grew up to be dubbed a knight on the morning of a battle, visited the Holy Land, and became the most successful tourney knight at the time. Even though he was successful in the tourney, William and his comrades lived the usual destitute existence for those of their station, often wasting their earnings on lavish gifts and feasts. William’s loyalty, generosity and military prowess won him attention and admiration. He was entrusted with the care of King Henry II’s son, the “Young King.” Even though William was accused of having sex with the Young King’s wife, he managed to retain the favor of King Henry II. After the Young King’s death, William remained loyal to Henry II throughout the scheming and plotting of Queen Eleanor, and Princes Richard and John. At one point, William even unhorsed Prince Richard in a skirmish. When King Henry II died, without much fanfare, William was one of the few that showed the dead king the proper respect he deserved. Despite past loyalties William was honored by the new king, Richard I (Lionheart), the very same person he had embarrassingly unhorsed, for William’s knightly qualities. William was granted permission to marry Isabel de Clare (William by now was in his late 40s or early 50s, and Isabel probably no older than 16 or 17), and was granted the fabled Chepstow castle along the Welsh marches. William went on to expand his lands in England, Normandy, and even Ireland. He remained loyal to the crown no matter what, honoring even the unruly and uncouth King John, fought the French and rebel English barons for his king, and helped broker Magna Carta as a loyal representative of King John. In his early seventies (amazing longevity given the era), William was still a soldier, storming the walls of the castle at Lincoln in service to his king. In his latter years he once again was entrusted with the care of a young king, Henry III. William started his career as a poor tourney knight, and ended his life as the regent of England and one of the most powerful and wealthy of English barons. He died peacefully, bequeathing and ordering his estates to the Church and his sons, and taking the cross as a Knight Templar. He was buried in the chapter church of the Knights Templar in London. Suspiciously, all of his sons were to die without heirs.

Effigy of William Marshal in the Temple Church, London.

Also, the story of the First Crusade has an engaging caste of characters, is full of side stories and adventures, unlikely heroes, fifth column villains, exotic places and human tragedy and stupidity. The story of the Leper King of Jerusalem could be made into a movie, full of intrigue, battle, unlikely courage, saintliness and corrupt churchmen, romance and sex. There’s thousands of examples, and while a more historically accurate rendering of these stories may be less romantic than that which we are accustomed, they are equally as engaging as being more human and surprisingly parallel to our own daily human struggles.

History is stranger than fantasy? Well, at any rate, the romantic vision has a good deal of worth, after all this romantic version, in the form of the courtly romances, was as part of the era as horse manure, wool tights and wheeled plows. And even though I might smile whimsically at the historical veracity of Ivanhoe, it’s still a darn good story.

Happy Reading!

--Dave

***Valandil*** · 10-24-2003, 05:07 PM

The one I'D like to see made into a movie would be Alfred the Great - particularly the winter at Athelney episode... (878?) - I'm going on memory here... but it really struck me when I discovered him in my college freshman Western Civ class.

That or historical Arthur stuff... serious stuff, without Guenevere, Lancelot, Galahad, Merlin, Camelot or Excalibur! But historical sources there seem to be quite limited from what I've gathered.

Say "Guillaume..." (Dave) - I sent you a PM last week... did you see it yet?

And yes... I will still like "Ivanhoe" anyway!

***Earniel*** · 10-24-2003, 05:32 PM

Interesting story, Guillaume le Maréchal. I can see why you choose him as your log-in name on the entmoot.

Tuor of Gondolin · 10-24-2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by Valandil
"The one I'D like to see made into a movie would be Alfred the Great"
__________________________________________________
I recall there was one made quite a while ago with Michael York, but he wasn't too happy with the result.

Of course, for a fun "historical" movie you can't beat "The Vikings", with Tony Curtis, Kirk Douglas, and Ernest Borgnine as the definitive Hollywood Viking. Great cinematography and music, and keep a scorecard for the historical inaccuracies.

As for William the Marshall, Earl of Penbroke, Lord of Strigil, and regent of England, there's a good brief account in The Magnificent Century, by Thomas B. Costain. I'm rather surprised the BBC hasn't gotten around to doing a mini-series on him and then renting it to PBS.

Guillaume le Maréchal · 10-24-2003, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Of course, for a fun "historical" movie you can't beat "The Vikings", with Tony Curtis, Kirk Douglas, and Ernest Borgnine as the definitive Hollywood Viking.

All I have to say to that is: ODIN!

10-22-2003, 07:30 AM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	How many people would make up a knights retinue in literature and reality? How many people would make up a knights retinue in literature and reality? What would their jobs and titles be? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

10-22-2003, 05:57 PM	#2
Guillaume le Maréchal Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 126	I’m not sure what you mean by a retinue. If you mean followers, squires and such, I imagine it would be determined by all kinds of factors. A typical knight of the 12th century would be a “young man,” someone on the poor end of the system of primogeniture--a penniless, landless, and otherwise devoid of income younger son of a feudal lord or some other noble. These knights were basically thrown into the world with only their training in the profession of arms, and sometimes without even armor, weapon or horse. These knights found business as mercenaries, and as such they rarely traveled about by themselves, but in the company of others of equal station. These companies could be very large, and some, especially one in Italy, numbered over a thousand well armed and well trained, ready to fight mercenary knights. These companies would be accompanied by the various tradesmen and merchants one would expect, such as blacksmiths and armorers, victual, horse, and bridle merchants, and, of course, prostitutes. The popularity of the tournament grew during the 12th century giving many of these knights added work. In this case, knights traveled together in companies or teams. A knight on his own would have a difficult time being successful in the tournament. (Actual medieval combat was a team effort, despite the bravado of contemporary literature.) Even if a knight was splendidly successful at a particular tournament, he often as not left the tournament just as penniless as he came. One of the most important aspects of chivalry was largesse, or generosity, and this trait of the knight was what made him truly a gentleman. Knights made it a point to use whatever wealth they came by for feasts and lavishing gifts on their comrades, or simply giving it away. Despite popular misconceptions, the poorest class in medieval days was probably the knight. Now a landed noble on a military campaign would probably be surrounded by as many servants as he could afford to bring along with him. Given the tremendous amount of resources required to sustain a rather small medieval army on campaign, the number of servants would be kept as small as possible. However, in some circumstances, these nobles were accompanied by their wives and children, and large portion of their household staff. In combat the well off landed knight would have at least one servant to act as a shield bearer to provide spare shields or lances (long spears), and fetch a new mount for his master in the likely eventuality that his master’s initial horse would die (in most circumstances the medieval battlefield was littered with far more dead horses than dead soldiers). Ideally the knight would have another servant to help him take into custody captured enemy knights (to be ransomed later), or his enemy’s horses (to be used, ransomed, or if things got desperate enough, to eat later). Medieval armies would have been accompanied by more peasant foot soldiers, archers and engineers (all of whom may have belonged to their own mercenary class, though historians are in disagreement about this). Any medieval army on campaign would have a train of followers made up of priests or mendicants, the usual crowd of blacksmiths and armorers, victual, horse and bridle merchants, and, of course, prostitutes and thieves. __________________ Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan Last edited by Guillaume le Maréchal : 10-22-2003 at 06:26 PM.

10-22-2003, 07:11 PM	#3
Guillaume le Maréchal Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 126	These two websites might be of use to you for your research: De Re Militari The Knighthood, Chivalry, Tournaments Resource Library __________________ Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan

10-24-2003, 04:50 PM	#5
Guillaume le Maréchal Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 126	LOL, Valandil. But, the less romantic version of the historical chevalier wasn’t necessarily devoid of adventure or excitement. The story of William Marshal is a case in point. He was the younger son of a noble, taken as a hostage by King Stephen who threatened to hurl the young boy against the walls of his father’s castle if William’s father didn’t come to terms with the king, but Stephen relented even though William’s father claimed that he still possessed the forge from whence William came and he could make a better one yet. William survived because of King Stephen’s pity, grew up to be dubbed a knight on the morning of a battle, visited the Holy Land, and became the most successful tourney knight at the time. Even though he was successful in the tourney, William and his comrades lived the usual destitute existence for those of their station, often wasting their earnings on lavish gifts and feasts. William’s loyalty, generosity and military prowess won him attention and admiration. He was entrusted with the care of King Henry II’s son, the “Young King.” Even though William was accused of having sex with the Young King’s wife, he managed to retain the favor of King Henry II. After the Young King’s death, William remained loyal to Henry II throughout the scheming and plotting of Queen Eleanor, and Princes Richard and John. At one point, William even unhorsed Prince Richard in a skirmish. When King Henry II died, without much fanfare, William was one of the few that showed the dead king the proper respect he deserved. Despite past loyalties William was honored by the new king, Richard I (Lionheart), the very same person he had embarrassingly unhorsed, for William’s knightly qualities. William was granted permission to marry Isabel de Clare (William by now was in his late 40s or early 50s, and Isabel probably no older than 16 or 17), and was granted the fabled Chepstow castle along the Welsh marches. William went on to expand his lands in England, Normandy, and even Ireland. He remained loyal to the crown no matter what, honoring even the unruly and uncouth King John, fought the French and rebel English barons for his king, and helped broker Magna Carta as a loyal representative of King John. In his early seventies (amazing longevity given the era), William was still a soldier, storming the walls of the castle at Lincoln in service to his king. In his latter years he once again was entrusted with the care of a young king, Henry III. William started his career as a poor tourney knight, and ended his life as the regent of England and one of the most powerful and wealthy of English barons. He died peacefully, bequeathing and ordering his estates to the Church and his sons, and taking the cross as a Knight Templar. He was buried in the chapter church of the Knights Templar in London. Suspiciously, all of his sons were to die without heirs. Effigy of William Marshal in the Temple Church, London. Also, the story of the First Crusade has an engaging caste of characters, is full of side stories and adventures, unlikely heroes, fifth column villains, exotic places and human tragedy and stupidity. The story of the Leper King of Jerusalem could be made into a movie, full of intrigue, battle, unlikely courage, saintliness and corrupt churchmen, romance and sex. There’s thousands of examples, and while a more historically accurate rendering of these stories may be less romantic than that which we are accustomed, they are equally as engaging as being more human and surprisingly parallel to our own daily human struggles. History is stranger than fantasy? Well, at any rate, the romantic vision has a good deal of worth, after all this romantic version, in the form of the courtly romances, was as part of the era as horse manure, wool tights and wheeled plows. And even though I might smile whimsically at the historical veracity of Ivanhoe, it’s still a darn good story. Happy Reading! --Dave __________________ Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan

10-24-2003, 05:32 PM	#7
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Interesting story, Guillaume le Maréchal. I can see why you choose him as your log-in name on the entmoot. __________________ We are not things.

10-24-2003, 04:13 AM	#4
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	G le M - you make it sound so terribly UNROMANTIC! Totally shifts my view of "Ivanhoe"

10-24-2003, 05:07 PM	#6
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	The one I'D like to see made into a movie would be Alfred the Great - particularly the winter at Athelney episode... (878?) - I'm going on memory here... but it really struck me when I discovered him in my college freshman Western Civ class. That or historical Arthur stuff... serious stuff, without Guenevere, Lancelot, Galahad, Merlin, Camelot or Excalibur! But historical sources there seem to be quite limited from what I've gathered. Say "Guillaume..." (Dave) - I sent you a PM last week... did you see it yet? And yes... I will still like "Ivanhoe" anyway!

10-24-2003, 06:38 PM	#8
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Originally posted by Valandil "The one I'D like to see made into a movie would be Alfred the Great" __________________________________________________ I recall there was one made quite a while ago with Michael York, but he wasn't too happy with the result. Of course, for a fun "historical" movie you can't beat "The Vikings", with Tony Curtis, Kirk Douglas, and Ernest Borgnine as the definitive Hollywood Viking. Great cinematography and music, and keep a scorecard for the historical inaccuracies. As for William the Marshall, Earl of Penbroke, Lord of Strigil, and regent of England, there's a good brief account in The Magnificent Century, by Thomas B. Costain. I'm rather surprised the BBC hasn't gotten around to doing a mini-series on him and then renting it to PBS. __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva!