Contentedness, homelessness and hobbits

Varda · 05-29-2002, 07:53 PM

I have a theory that the true meaning in Tolkien's classics is a message about homelessness, greed and the various types of wanderers.

Tolkien was Catholic, probably converted by his wife. Gandalf -- The wandering wizard... made a name for himself as a bearer of bad news. He went from place to place helping out where he could. Sauron was an agent of evil. Hobbits lived in holes in the ground. They were fat and characteristically cared more for the comforts of life than adventures. They were not noble in character but humble in stature, enjoying the peace and quiet of the simple shire. When Bilbo left the peace of his little hobbit hole and returned with many riches, these deeds introduced greed into the hearts of the other hobbits, who saw the gold and jewels that he returned with from his adventures. I believe that these hobbits were not so much rich in money and jewels beforehand but that tehy were rich in the finer things in life: love, wisdom, charity, devotion... they resembled people of good morals who were simple quiet and at peace with the world. No one needs to get into heaven with these sorts of ideas. "Adventures make one late for dinner."

These emotions resemble many characteristic temptations of old: the apple in the garden of eden, pushign the "red button" despite all good advice saying "do not push the red button"...

In light of all this: Let's pretend that Bilbo had never set out on that faitful day... that Gandalf (aka Mithrandir, aka The Wandering Wizard) had left the poor hobbit in peace... would Sauron have destroyed the rest of the world? Or was Sauron's power perhaps not the ring itself but the lust for power that the ring inevitably brought to those who bore it? Could this be more of a "Dumbo and the Magic Feather" thing... where there's nothing special about the ring itself but that knowing about the ring at all stirs up trouble.

To sum up: What if Gollum had retained the ring and used it to capture the occasional orc for food? Would the world have been a worse place for all their trouble? Can we learn anything from this?

And I know I sound like a spoil-sport... it just seems like an interesting little life lesson... why go on adventures at all?? Couldnt we stay in our hobbit holes and live our lives in peace without feeling the need to be great heroes? Wouldnt we all be happier as hobbits in our holes than as Wizards fighting balrogs down holes?

Would we?

Tar-Elendil · 05-29-2002, 10:58 PM

u also gotta think..frodo sacrificed his own saftey for the good of all Middle-Earth. if bilbo hadnt gone out on the adventure the ring would probably have stayed under the misty mountains and sauron would never haave been destroyed. You have to sacrifice yourself at times for the well being of an entire people(s) people died in the war of the ring, yes. But more would have died if sauron would have stayed in power , and future generations would have to experience the same horror and war

Varda · 05-29-2002, 11:53 PM

Well true... the age of Sauron was the age of tyranny... and some say better to die victoriously in battle than to live for eons. I believe elves being immoral needed battles every once in a while or else Middle Earth would have been thick with elves. Wars happen... sad but true... and there are casualties and civilians. It is sad that Bilbo had to be dragged in at the age he was, since he did not seem anxious to go at first. And the world had left the era of peace at that time.

Yet, in Christian terms, God created the world of Eden to be perfect. Did he expect humans to maintain its perfection? I suppose, if the stories are true, we can never really know the mind of God. And in that sense, I see Tolkien's Hobbit as an exploration of human patterns of war, adventure, greed... etc. A typical fantasy book for children of all ages... or those who never grew.

Also remember, English were small once, so perhaps this is just a way of relating some history and wars the way certain historians believe they really did happen... Perhaps Sauron really represents some evil Empire?

But I digress. Keeping in the confines of the Hobbit, I wonder what the real intentions of the dwarves were.

Comic Book Guy · 05-30-2002, 05:59 PM

I'd just like to say that Tolkien wasn't converted by his wife Edith Bratt, he was born a Catholic.

Laredith · 05-30-2002, 06:05 PM

Yes, and LotR is not an allegory by any means. This includes religious AND political. Tolkien said so himself. To suggest that LotR is an allegory of history would be like the critics that Lewis ranted and raved about in "Of Critics". (not that I think that your theory suggests an allegory, but you began to hint at a political allegory)

webwizard333 · 05-30-2002, 09:40 PM

I've always felt that the whole message of The Hobbit was about the need for adventure, similar to Don Quixote but with real mosnters. Through his adventures Bilbo matures and becomes a better person; he connects with his Tookish side. He grows as a character from a rather boring figure, to someone with whom the younger hobbits admire for the excitement in his life, as opposed to the other sedentary hobbits.
As for allegory, I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien was oposed to the idea. Yet, his works can be connected to many different events and religious beliefs.

Tar-Elendil · 06-01-2002, 05:14 PM

ive heard diff things..
the most popular one is the hobbit is suppose to represent WWII..Smaug is hitler and germany..orcs and stuff other countries on axis side..ridiculous

Comic Book Guy · 06-01-2002, 07:31 PM

Tolkien began writing the Lord of the Rings in 1937, he wrote in a letter on December 19 (Interesting date) 1937 saying

Quote:

I have written the first chapter of a new story about Hobbits - a long Expected party

The war began in 1939, ruling out the beginning of any sort of allegory, because of Tolkiens style of writing. Even though Tolkien did state his views on the State of europe sometimes.

Tolkien didn't like allegory...

Quote:

I cordially dislike allegory in all it's manifeststations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect it's presence

Tolkien also said that the placing of Mordor in the east was a "Simple narative and geographical neccessity". He also denied that the destruction of the Ring represented the A-Bomb.

Christiana · 06-07-2002, 11:14 PM

I think that Tolkien ment it to be a lesson:"you don't have to be big and powerful to make a differance."Simalarly(sp):"have courage when faceing evil, if you remain true you can triumph."
and,"Sometimes we have to forsake our thoughts for the good of all."

SamwiseGamgeeOTS · 06-29-2002, 05:33 PM

i think that life would be boring without adventures.

OrangeStone · 07-07-2002, 02:21 AM

I do not think the Hobbit is an allegory. For instance, the hobbits' natures do not change to greed after Bilbo comes back; they were always the same way. (This seems more true when the 'new' information from the Fellowship is plugged into the equation). It would be nice if we could just live peacefully in hobbit holes, but at least some people would feel stagnated and trapped after a while. I think that humans need change even if they don't always like it at first. (This is true for some hobbits also!).

Khadrane · 07-25-2002, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Varda
I believe elves being immoral needed battles every once in a while

Why do you think Elves are immoral?

05-29-2002, 07:53 PM	#1
Varda Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Carmel Valley, CA Posts: 146	Contentedness, homelessness and hobbits I have a theory that the true meaning in Tolkien's classics is a message about homelessness, greed and the various types of wanderers. Tolkien was Catholic, probably converted by his wife. Gandalf -- The wandering wizard... made a name for himself as a bearer of bad news. He went from place to place helping out where he could. Sauron was an agent of evil. Hobbits lived in holes in the ground. They were fat and characteristically cared more for the comforts of life than adventures. They were not noble in character but humble in stature, enjoying the peace and quiet of the simple shire. When Bilbo left the peace of his little hobbit hole and returned with many riches, these deeds introduced greed into the hearts of the other hobbits, who saw the gold and jewels that he returned with from his adventures. I believe that these hobbits were not so much rich in money and jewels beforehand but that tehy were rich in the finer things in life: love, wisdom, charity, devotion... they resembled people of good morals who were simple quiet and at peace with the world. No one needs to get into heaven with these sorts of ideas. "Adventures make one late for dinner." These emotions resemble many characteristic temptations of old: the apple in the garden of eden, pushign the "red button" despite all good advice saying "do not push the red button"... In light of all this: Let's pretend that Bilbo had never set out on that faitful day... that Gandalf (aka Mithrandir, aka The Wandering Wizard) had left the poor hobbit in peace... would Sauron have destroyed the rest of the world? Or was Sauron's power perhaps not the ring itself but the lust for power that the ring inevitably brought to those who bore it? Could this be more of a "Dumbo and the Magic Feather" thing... where there's nothing special about the ring itself but that knowing about the ring at all stirs up trouble. To sum up: What if Gollum had retained the ring and used it to capture the occasional orc for food? Would the world have been a worse place for all their trouble? Can we learn anything from this? And I know I sound like a spoil-sport... it just seems like an interesting little life lesson... why go on adventures at all?? Couldnt we stay in our hobbit holes and live our lives in peace without feeling the need to be great heroes? Wouldnt we all be happier as hobbits in our holes than as Wizards fighting balrogs down holes? Would we? __________________ "Life's a journey, not a destination." --Steven Tyler, Aerosmith, Arwen's daddy MySpace

05-29-2002, 10:58 PM	#2
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	u also gotta think..frodo sacrificed his own saftey for the good of all Middle-Earth. if bilbo hadnt gone out on the adventure the ring would probably have stayed under the misty mountains and sauron would never haave been destroyed. You have to sacrifice yourself at times for the well being of an entire people(s) people died in the war of the ring, yes. But more would have died if sauron would have stayed in power , and future generations would have to experience the same horror and war __________________ Why can we not be sober..

05-29-2002, 11:53 PM	#3
Varda Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Carmel Valley, CA Posts: 146	Well true... the age of Sauron was the age of tyranny... and some say better to die victoriously in battle than to live for eons. I believe elves being immoral needed battles every once in a while or else Middle Earth would have been thick with elves. Wars happen... sad but true... and there are casualties and civilians. It is sad that Bilbo had to be dragged in at the age he was, since he did not seem anxious to go at first. And the world had left the era of peace at that time. Yet, in Christian terms, God created the world of Eden to be perfect. Did he expect humans to maintain its perfection? I suppose, if the stories are true, we can never really know the mind of God. And in that sense, I see Tolkien's Hobbit as an exploration of human patterns of war, adventure, greed... etc. A typical fantasy book for children of all ages... or those who never grew. Also remember, English were small once, so perhaps this is just a way of relating some history and wars the way certain historians believe they really did happen... Perhaps Sauron really represents some evil Empire? But I digress. Keeping in the confines of the Hobbit, I wonder what the real intentions of the dwarves were. __________________ "Life's a journey, not a destination." --Steven Tyler, Aerosmith, Arwen's daddy MySpace

05-30-2002, 06:05 PM	#5
Laredith Enting Join Date: May 2002 Location: Gondor...no seriously, I do. Posts: 64	Yes, and LotR is not an allegory by any means. This includes religious AND political. Tolkien said so himself. To suggest that LotR is an allegory of history would be like the critics that Lewis ranted and raved about in "Of Critics". (not that I think that your theory suggests an allegory, but you began to hint at a political allegory) __________________ "You're rum little creatures, you humans." --Bree, from HHB ohh...and by the way... FRODO LIVES!!!

05-30-2002, 09:40 PM	#6
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	I've always felt that the whole message of The Hobbit was about the need for adventure, similar to Don Quixote but with real mosnters. Through his adventures Bilbo matures and becomes a better person; he connects with his Tookish side. He grows as a character from a rather boring figure, to someone with whom the younger hobbits admire for the excitement in his life, as opposed to the other sedentary hobbits. As for allegory, I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien was oposed to the idea. Yet, his works can be connected to many different events and religious beliefs. __________________ Boo!

05-30-2002, 05:59 PM	#4
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	I'd just like to say that Tolkien wasn't converted by his wife Edith Bratt, he was born a Catholic.

06-01-2002, 05:14 PM	#7
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	ive heard diff things.. the most popular one is the hobbit is suppose to represent WWII..Smaug is hitler and germany..orcs and stuff other countries on axis side..ridiculous __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-07-2002, 11:14 PM	#9
Christiana Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor Posts: 1,231	I think that Tolkien ment it to be a lesson:"you don't have to be big and powerful to make a differance."Simalarly(sp):"have courage when faceing evil, if you remain true you can triumph." and,"Sometimes we have to forsake our thoughts for the good of all." __________________ I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris

06-29-2002, 05:33 PM	#10
SamwiseGamgeeOTS Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A quaint little hole which last time I checked was somewhere near Ohio, Middle-Earth. Posts: 165	i think that life would be boring without adventures. __________________ "...Eragon recoiled in shock. Standing in front of him, licking off the membrane that encased it, was a dragon."

07-07-2002, 02:21 AM	#11
OrangeStone Sapling Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A path Posts: 4	I do not think the Hobbit is an allegory. For instance, the hobbits' natures do not change to greed after Bilbo comes back; they were always the same way. (This seems more true when the 'new' information from the Fellowship is plugged into the equation). It would be nice if we could just live peacefully in hobbit holes, but at least some people would feel stagnated and trapped after a while. I think that humans need change even if they don't always like it at first. (This is true for some hobbits also!).