Gondor's Navy - through the Years

[Valandil]

The Numenoreans were great sea-farers, and the twin kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor were established by sailing men. We don't see much of this by the end of the Third Age, at least in the recounting of LOTR. But some hints are present.

My initial thinking was that Gondor had largely ceased to be a naval power after the events of the Kin-Strife - about halfway through the Third Age. In 1447, Castamir's sons, their kin and other followers sailed their fleet away from Pelargir - to Umbar, and there established themselves as a separate kingdom. It is stated that;

"(King) Eldacar had no ships to beset them by sea". (Appendix A - on Gondor)

That seemed to signal the end of any effective Gondorean Navy. But I've changed my mind on that. Because, some 500 years later, when Earnil II sends a great fleet to the Grey Havens to counter-attack those of Angmar who had over-run Fornost and the last of Arthedain;

"...there was joy and great wonder among both Elves and Men. So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harborage, though both the Harlond and the Forlond also were filled." (also Appendix A - on Gondor)

So apparently - Gondor re-built an effective navy! And then some. Looking at the map, 'the Harlond' and 'the Forlond' are not THAT close to the Grey Havens - at least in terms of clustering of ships. There must have been many, many, MANY ships! And these ships were large... they're described as being great in draught. (I envision the great Numenorean and Gondorian ships resembling more the 'square-rigged' behemoths of the late 1700's, early 1800's - like HMS Victory, only without cannons - instead of like Viking ships. Elven ships may have looked more like Viking ships)

Even the Elves were blown away! And these would have been ship-building, sea-faring Elves!

I searched through Appendix B, and found these dates somewhat relevant to Gondor's Navy:

Second Age:
3319/3320 - Destruction of Numenor / founding of Arnor & Gondor
3429 - Subsequent to Sauron's attack on Gondor, Isildur goes north with his family to Elendil. He sails (it says he escapes down Anduin). I wonder about his route in the north - assuming Elendil was at Annuminas. Did he sail to Tharbad, then go by land? Up Baranduin as far as possible - either to Sarn Ford, or switching there to a shallower boat (still w/ sail). Or up the Lhun - especially if Elendil happened to be at Emyn Beraid, where he spent a considerable amount of time.

Third Age:
830-1149 Reigns of the Ship-Kings (possibly the height of Gondor's Navy - for Gondor is said to have reached the time of its greatest power during the reign of the last of these): Tarannon Falastur (to 913), Earnil I (to 936), Ciryandil (to 1015), Hyarmendacil/Ciryaher (to 1149)
1437-1447 Kin-Strife; reign of Castamir the Usurper (who had been Captain of Ships - and preferred Pelargir over Osgiliath), ending with his death and the flight of his heirs - apparently with the full Navy of Gondor - to Umbar.
1634 King Minardil slain at Pelargir by Corsairs of Umbar (Indicating that Gondor's Navy was still weaker? Maybe - or else a successful surprise attack. Or - maybe this action spurred Gondor to resume greater ship-building efforts).
1636 Great Plague devastates Gondor (almost certainly hampers ship-building efforts)
1810 Telumehtar took Umbar by storm. This had to be naval-based, given the distance, the lands between, and the apparently defensibility of Umbar from land-based attacks (Gondor at times held it while all lands around were enemies).
1851 Attacks of Wainriders begin - certainly shifts Gondor's attention to land-based forces.
1944 Great battle at Dagorlad and "Battle of the Camp" - large land-based battles, Earnil II succeeds Ondoher, who dies in battle.
1975 Earnil II sends Great Fleet to Grey Havens.

And, much later...
~2980 Aragorn (as Thorongil) leads attack of small fleet to burn many ships of the fleet in Umbar, and himself slays the Captain of the Havens. This sounds like a small guerilla operation against a superior foe - so apparently Gondor had little use for/ability to maintain its formerly large fleet in the 1000 years since crushing Angmar's forces in the North.

Any thoughts?

[GrayMouser]

Why would Gondor have needed a large navy before the King-strife?
They certainly had no trade northward, and who would they have been fighting against further south? AFAIK, there's no mention of either Sauron or any other forces threatening them by sea.

Of course, it might have just been an oversight by those more interested in chronicling events in more northerly regions.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

My initial thinking was that Gondor had largely ceased to be a naval power after the events of the Kin-Strife - about halfway through the Third Age. In 1447, Castamir's sons, their kin and other followers sailed their fleet away from Pelargir - to Umbar, and there established themselves as a separate kingdom. [...]That seemed to signal the end of any effective Gondorean Navy.

It always seemed to me that Castamir's sons not so much sailed away with their fleet but absconded with most if not the entire Gondorean fleet. Castamir cared pretty much only for the fleet, so many of the top naval positions would either have been relatives or close allies and friends. The people may not have had much love for Castamir after a taste of his rule, but I bet the fleet was totally loyal to him right up to the end and afterwards.

It would also be tactically a very good move to leave with every war-ship or transport they still controlled and leave nothing behind that Eldacar could use for pursuit or assault on Umbar. This would buy them plenty of time to prepare Umbar so that attacking it would be such a very bad and costly idea that Eldacar was better off forgetting all about Umbar to put his efforts in rebuilding a war-damaged Gondor.

Yet I imagine Eldacar set to rebuilding a fleet right away (if only to be capable of defending against a naval attack from Umbar) but that still must have taken quite a while. It is also quite possible most, perhaps all, of the shipwrights, architects and experienced sailors had deflected to Umbar as well so Eldacar may really have had to start from scratch.

Just imagine if there was no one at all left in Gondor that possessed any of the old Númenorean knowledge of naval construction, which had grown and changed substantially from the earlier Elven ship-building techniques. ( I daresay Elven ship-building had stagnated already since the First Age and no new technologies were developed there.) Gondor could have been set back centuries as they would have to try and learn it all again by trial and error.

All that could very well give Umbar supremacy on the seas for years and years perhaps even a few centuries or more after the battle.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Why would Gondor have needed a large navy before the King-strife?
They certainly had no trade northward, and who would they have been fighting against further south? AFAIK, there's no mention of either Sauron or any other forces threatening them by sea.

Of course, it might have just been an oversight by those more interested in chronicling events in more northerly regions.

GM - Gondor was clearly increasing their sway in Middle Earth for the first 1000 years of the Third Age. Much of this was up and down the coasts. The four consecutive "Ship Kings" were emblematic of this.

I don't think it was so much in response to a threat, as... maybe being one?

I think they could well have had much shipping trade to the north - with Arnor. At least as far as Tharbad, and maybe up the other rivers of Arnor as well.

And I suppose in most cases - and I agree largely lacking other seafaring rivals (unless some of the southern kingdoms established by Numenoreans were so - the Haradrim) - that like ancient navies in our own histories, ships were largely used to transport troops, not for ship-to-ship combat. It's possible though, that forms of ship-to-ship combat happened in Middle Earth: via ramming, fire, use of projectiles, etc. But mostly, I think the navies provided the best transportation to bring troops up and down the coasts, and along other coastal waterways.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

It always seemed to me that Castamir's sons not so much sailed away with their fleet but absconded with most if not the entire Gondorean fleet. Castamir cared pretty much only for the fleet, so many of the top naval positions would either have been relatives or close allies and friends. The people may not have had much love for Castamir after a taste of his rule, but I bet the fleet was totally loyal to him right up to the end and afterwards.

It would also be tactically a very good move to leave with every war-ship or transport they still controlled and leave nothing behind that Eldacar could use for pursuit or assault on Umbar. This would buy them plenty of time to prepare Umbar so that attacking it would be such a very bad and costly idea that Eldacar was better off forgetting all about Umbar to put his efforts in rebuilding a war-damaged Gondor.

Yet I imagine Eldacar set to rebuilding a fleet right away (if only to be capable of defending against a naval attack from Umbar) but that still must have taken quite a while. It is also quite possible most, perhaps all, of the shipwrights, architects and experienced sailors had deflected to Umbar as well so Eldacar may really have had to start from scratch.

Just imagine if there was no one at all left in Gondor that possessed any of the old Númenorean knowledge of naval construction, which had grown and changed substantially from the earlier Elven ship-building techniques. ( I daresay Elven ship-building had stagnated already since the First Age and no new technologies were developed there.) Gondor could have been set back centuries as they would have to try and learn it all again by trial and error.

All that could very well give Umbar supremacy on the seas for years and years perhaps even a few centuries or more after the battle.

I agree on pretty much all points. YES - I think Castamir's sons took the whole Gondorian Navy with them (Eldacar had no ships...). The Gondorian Navy went all at once from being tremendous to being nothing... or to becoming the New Umbarian Navy. And Yes - I agree that most of the seafaring folk of Gondor would have retained their loyalty to Castamir's sons - especially over this half-breed northerner king Eldacar. He had favored them over the rest of Gondor, and they would have benefitted in his reign. And they likely saw a reversal of fortunes coming if they DID stick around.

Now that I think of it, it's interesting that Castamir's sons first held out at Pelargir, before sailing off to Umbar. They could have sent messengers out to Umbar (and maybe other significant ports, further south), investigating how they might be welcomed - or whether they could deal with an unfriendly welcome - and awaiting replies before commiting themselves to a course of action.

EDIT: Remember that Umbar was a possession of Gondor at this time. Castamir's sons had to 'test the water' (ooo... what a great punny use of that expression) about whether those governing in Umbar would welcome them, or if they might be resisted or later turned over to Eldacar.

[Earniel]

That is indeed a possibility, however I think they could have been sufficiently sure of Umbar's hospitality since it would probably have been staffed by navy, and therefor allies. But I can imagine as they planned to go there with a large fleet and crew, they'd want to know whether Umbar was able to even house the whole lot. To receive that many permanent residents (most undoubtedly took their family along), I take it Umbar soon knew a housing boom!

Just imagine if Gondor under Castamir had used Umbar a bit like Syberia, and had send all the dissidents and political rivals there, that would have been quite problem for them.

But I think the time Castamir's sons hung out at Pelargir was also used to give loyal troops that may have been dispersed after the battle, or that were stationed elsewhere along the Gondorean coast the time to gather. If they had planned to ascond with most of the fleet and leave Eldacar with nothing (rather than leaving with the fleet was just a consequence of them having many allies there) then that too would have taken planning and time. They would have had to stock enough supplies and such.