The Forsaken Inn

[Entlover]

Originally posted by Churl


Some novels give you the sense that the main characters move through the story on "tracks." In other words, the entire fictional reality seems to follow them around, assembling itself like a cheap sitcom soundstage just long enough for them to say their piece there and move on: they never see any place or talk about anything that doesn't have a direct bearing on the linear plot.]

Well, yes, but writers are supposed to concentrate on advancing the plot. Even Tolkien does that - either plot or character is advanced on every page. He just has such a massive plot and interwoven plotlines and so many places involved that it appears more like a real world.

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Snowdog
Yes Keith K, like the forsaken stretches of Route 66 after the freeways were built.

I still have a vision of the place as one that seen better days.

Perhaps we should call it the "God-Forsaken Inn" Snowdog!!

[Nurvingiel]

Tolkein also develops the history of Middle-earth and of each character very extensively, which also subtly advances the plot.

Places like the Forsaken Inn (where ever it's mentioned) succeed in doing this.

I think everything in a book advances the plot in some way, it just depends if it sends the plot in some pointless direction, or brings it closer to an interesting climax.

Tolkein is never pointless and extremely subtle.

[azalea]

It also helps to make ME a "larger" place than what the one episode encompasses. There are other people, elves, hobbits, dwarves, doing other things.

[Snowdog]

Snowdog, I'm very interested in your signature. Who said, "I was so much older then, I'm much younger than that now." ?

Its the chorus line from Bob Dylan's song 'My Back Pages'.


More like Eru-Forsaken Inn???

[Aphanuzîr]

It may be that the Forsaken Inn was called 'forsaken' because noone (except perhaps the Rangers) went there, like Deadmen's Dike (former Fornost). But Dwarves used the East-West road a lot; they would naturally want shelter for the night. Thorin's company passed through a country with 'an inn or two' in Eriador during the Quest of Erebor in 2941; perhaps one of them was the Forsaken Inn. After all, in 1966 Tolkien was "greatly concerned to harmonise Bilbo's journey with the geography of The Lord of the Rings". It does not explicitly say that they visited it though, but it would perhaps be a natural place of rest for them (in Appendix A Thorin stayed at Bree for the night, presumably at an inn, maybe The Prancing Pony where the meeting with Gandalf took place, which led up to the Quest of Erebor; though this was later changed to take place at the road near Bree (see 'The Quest of Erebor')).

TH, 'Roast Mutton':

At first they [Thorin's company] had passed through hobbit-lands, a wild respectable country inhabited by decent folk, with good roads, an inn or two, and now and then a dwarf or a farmer ambling by on business.

But there are also other mysterious things regarding the inn:

LR, 'A Knife in the Dark':

'I don't know if the Road has ever been measured in miles beyond the Forsaken Inn, a day's journey east of Bree,' answered Strider. 'Some say it is so far, and some say otherwise. It is a strange road, and folk are glad to reach their journey's end, whether the time is long or short. But I know how long it would take me on my own feet, with fair weather and no ill fortune twelve days from here to the Ford of Bruinen

Somehow this passage leads me to think about a 'ghost town' (inn) that moves along the road, so that travellers who visit or pass the inn by get different feelings about how long the road to the Ford of Bruinen is. But Aragorn seems to know for certain how long it will take him to walk the road; does the effect not concern Rangers?

But since Aragorn says

it would take me on my own feet, with fair weather and no ill fortune twelve days from here to the Ford of Bruinen

, perhaps people just get different feelings about how long the road is because the weather varies a lot and unexpected things happen to them, and this makes the time to walk the road to vary a lot.


The Sindar called themselves Eglath, the Forsaken People. Could it be that the Forsaken Inn was controlled by Sindar who were among those Sindar who went East from Lindon in the beginning of the Second Age? On another Tolkien board Michael Martinez also speculated that it was controlled by Avari, from the etymology of the word forsaken.


It is sort of curious that Aragorn says

I don't know if the Road has ever been measured in miles beyond the Forsaken Inn

because the Númenóreans in Isildur's day had measured the road from Bree to Rivendell:

'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields', note 6 (Author's note):

These roads [the North-South road and the East-West road] crossed at a point [Bree] west of Amon Sûl (Weathertop), by Númenórean road-measurements three hundred and ninety-two leagues from Osgiliath, and then east to Imladris one hundred and sixteen: five hundred and eight leagues in all.

[Attalus]

I would suppose that Aragorn was unaware of that measurement, since it was so many years since the Gladden Fields, and much lore had been lost.

[Snowdog]

Good disertation Aphanuzîr. An old, ghosttownish image of the Inn I always had, little used but still viable. its heyday was most likely in the grander days of Arnor, which is speculation on my part.

[Jon S.]

Everyone so far seems to have interpreted "Forsaken" as an adjective modifying "Inn." But what if it's a noun? That would make it essentially "The Inn for the Forsaken" AKA "The Forsaken Inn."

Not a bad name, really, to entice weary travelers in a deserted portion of Middle Earth who, by then, undoubtedly felt forsaken.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

But what if it's a noun? That would make it essentially "The Inn for the Forsaken"
Not a bad name, really, to entice weary travelers in a deserted portion of Middle Earth who, by then, undoubtedly felt forsaken.

Kind like in "Hotel California" by Eagles? The inn which is there, but better to be avoided?As I recall it located somewhere near Midgewater marshes.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

Good disertation Aphanuzîr. An old, ghosttownish image of the Inn I always had, little used but still viable. its heyday was most likely in the grander days of Arnor, which is speculation on my part.

Yeah it was excellent. How long is a league anyway? An 1/8th of a mile?

I was wondering about the name too Jon S. I like your idea. If the inn did date back to the good old days, before Fornost was called Deadman's Dike, I imagine the inn would have had a more cheerful name. Travellers wouldn't have been forsaken then, and neither would the inn.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Yeah it was excellent. How long is a league anyway? An 1/8th of a mile?

A league is three miles.

The term for 1/8th of a mile is 'furlong' - from the length of a furrow, ie, how far a farmer would plow in a line before he turned his plow around and went back the other way... and FYI - an acre is 1/8th of a mile (660') long by 1/80th of a mile (66') wide.

Nurvi, I thought you were gonna tell Olmer that The Forsaken Inn IS like the Eagles' "Hotel California" song!

Yes - I think over time the use of the Great East-West Road just greatly diminished - and that all the many inns and towns that had once lined it gradually disappeared. There may have even been less in 3018-19 (the travel years in LOTR) than there had been in 2941-42, when Bilbo would have passed that way in "The Hobbit". Perhaps by 3018, what was then called "The Forsaken Inn" (and perhaps only as a nickname) was barely hanging on.

[Nurvingiel]

I didn't say because of course it's like the Eagles song! Um... yeah. (Sung by the servants of Manwë )

Interesting post Val. Now that you say that, I'm sure that the Inn didn't start out as the Forsaken Inn. Who would name a probably (or hopefully) prosperous Inn 'forsaken' unless they were being ironic or funny? Probably not even Aragorn remembered its original name.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by bropous

"The Forsaken Inn" sort of conjures up visions of lonely "Stuckey's" stuck out in the middle of nowhere on the highway....

I agree with bropous and Wayfarers thoughts on this, it sounds right. It wasn't enroute to anywhere just "out there" in the wild world.

[Jon S.]

FWIW, the section of The Tolkien Forum intended for "Relatively serious off-topic discussions involving various social issues, philosophy, literature, and similar topics" is named The Forsaken Inn.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=97

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Spock

I agree with bropous and Wayfarers thoughts on this, it sounds right. It wasn't enroute to anywhere just "out there" in the wild world.

It must have been not so 'out there' at one point though, otherwise why build an inn?

[Spock]

..speculation...build and they will come....out where nothing exists to serve the wanderers and/or those who don't crave companionship; i.e. Bree, Shire, etc.

[Nurvingiel]

Field of Dreams - the unreleased Middle-earth version!

Would you really walk for 3 days to go to an inn in the wilderness when you could go to the Pony though?

[Spock]

depends upon the ambience and entertainment.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Field of Dreams - the unreleased Middle-earth version!

Would you really walk for 3 days to go to an inn in the wilderness when you could go to the Pony though?

Well... being that it is outside the jurisdiction of Bree... the ambience and entertainment may be a bit..... wilder?