Ringbearer

***Valandil*** · 06-04-2005, 08:38 PM

I have wondered about this before, but am thinking about it much more today.

Part of what Tolkien liked to do was to sort of 'plant' things in his Middle Earth mythology that would be connected to traditions that we carry with us today. After all, that seems to be the apparent 'purpose' of much mythology (which he in large part attempted to emulate) - to create explanations for why things were the way they were.

I don't know if all of you are familiar with this custom, but in America these days, it's common for there to be two very young members of a 'wedding party' - a young lady who is called a 'Flower Girl' and a young gentleman who is called a 'Ring Bearer'. I was never a ring bearer myself as a child, and we didn't have those positions at our wedding (my wife's preference - she was afraid they would just be a couple things wrong waiting to happen

). Today however, we had a wedding at our church, and our oldest son, now 7, was the Ring Bearer (which is why I'm thinking of it).

So anyway: 'Ring Bearer' (uh - let's save the discussion on comparisons between a wedding ring and a Ring of Power for another thread, OK?

) - carrying a ring, short Hobbit-sized guy, etc, etc. Was Tolkien thinking of this AT ALL when he used the term? In particular, it seems like Aragorn and Arwen use that term often in addressing Frodo after their own wedding.

Whatchaguysthink?

Olmer · 06-04-2005, 11:47 PM

I think, as I already told you, if you are looking for analogies, you will definately find them.

But the Ringbearer in connection with the wedding custom...I don't think Tolkien had in mind this specific meaning.
But on another hand, he had boys, and such custom also popular in England...so who knows...? Maybe the idea to call Frodo "a Ringbearer" sprung out of this association.
Interesting thought.

Butterbeer · 06-05-2005, 03:54 PM

i disagree totally: never heard of it in england, esp not in tolkien's time

I was on the phone to my cousin earler (who is a wedding photograpaher) and i remembered to ask him about it : he's never heard of it - and he's done hundreds of weddings in the uk.

Sorry valandil but from my perspective you really are clutching at straws with that one -

ps Olmer: did you know we've started a rpg more or less in your honour: the fellowship of the ringwraiths: its still very early doors but it'd be great if you could add the odd post or two either in the rpg or in a directoial sense in the discussion thread, its a bit of fun at the momment: but it could also seriously examine various theories too.

try and add a little input when you have a momment, cheers butterbeer

***Valandil*** · 06-06-2005, 07:08 AM

Then maybe I have it backwards.

Maybe LOTR fans here in the USA started the custom of having Hobbit-sized "Ring Bearers" as a part of their weddings!

Along about the 50's or 60's...

The Gaffer · 06-06-2005, 07:19 AM

Agree with the UK contributions: it's not a tradition here. However, people seem to be starting to do it. I think it's a nice way to have your kids involved in the ceremony without freaking them out or risking them dropping the ring down the bog.

I had my son (aged 7 at the time) carry the rings from the best man to the minister at my wedding. Also, I'm best man at a wedding in October, and they want him and the bridesmaid's daughter to do the same.

I think it's more to do with changing demographics: people getting remarried wanting to give their kids a role.

***Valandil*** · 06-06-2005, 07:41 AM

Most uses I've seen have been someone's cousin or nephew - although I imagine that more and more, people who are re-marrying, or who had a child before marriage - are using this to involve their kids, as you say.

Olmer · 06-06-2005, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valandil

Then maybe I have it backwards.

Maybe LOTR fans here in the USA started the custom of having Hobbit-sized "Ring Bearers" as a part of their weddings!

Along about the 50's or 60's...

That's interesting!
It might be very well that with Tolkien's book got started the new custom.

Need to do a little research in connection with years of its launching, thought.

P.S. How is the book going?
I saw you did really in depth research on the North Kingdom subject.
You will do it as Firiel's letters, don't you?

***Valandil*** · 06-06-2005, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmer

:
:
P.S. How is the book going?
I saw you did really in depth research on the North Kingdom subject.
You will do it as Firiel's letters, don't you?

I've been working on it some, but only a little at a time. I'm starting with a framework, which I'll probably keep adjusting as time goes on (so I'm not sure if it will ever be suitable for posting - at least in the near future. But maybe...). It's sort of modeled on the chapter about the Kings of Numenor in UT - it's a summary of the life and reign of each King in the Northern Line (and just for fun, I added something for Cardolan and Rhudaur). I began with everything I could find that Tolkien gives us, then started to add in hints at my own stories. It's now over half as long as my total "Letters of Firiel" document.

I've also begun my first story - but I haven't gotten back to it in a long time. I project 7 chapters - wrote most of the first one in late March, but haven't progressed any further. I know what's going to happen, it's just making time for it that is so difficult...

Thanks for asking.

Olmer · 06-06-2005, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valandil

I know what's going to happen, it's just making time for it that is so difficult...

Tell me about it!
Remember, I was telling that not all that crazy ideas are mine? Finally, I connected with this guy and we decided just for fun to put our heads together and to make an essay. Turn out that we created a monster, it is already 56 pages and the work not even half done

It makes progress even slower because we both are having work, families and social's commitments. Don't even know when and how we will end up.
Time is running too fast.

***Valandil*** · 06-06-2005, 08:14 AM

Yeah - I just have to figure I'm in it for the "long haul" - and that if I really want to do it, it may take me 20 years (in which case, sustaining my own interest may be a tough obstacle).

Maybe it'll go a little faster once the boys are grown...

The Gaffer · 06-06-2005, 08:32 AM

Well, it's a great project V. Don't forget that JRRT took about donkeys years to write the Sil, LOTR, etc! Maybe once you've retired

Gordis · 06-06-2005, 03:06 PM

Valandil, I had a pleasure to read your Firiel's letters. Awesome! I really hope you will continue and expand them.

There are so few fics and studies on Arthedain!
Gordis

Butterbeer · 06-06-2005, 03:31 PM

well the gaffer's right, anything (generally) worth doing well takes time: as the gaffer said: look at tolkien: once it started , almost a life's work: worth it though: keep up the good work valandil !

ps olmer: just say if all this 'olmer to join the rpg' stuff is too much!

its just a (for sure well meant and genuine) bit of fun: no offence but we are currently struggling to find Nine conspirators ... if you're ok with the recognition (for so it is meant) than fine, if not just say and we'll (I?) will knock it on the head ...

best to Valandil and Olmer
BB

06-04-2005, 08:38 PM	#1
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Ringbearer I have wondered about this before, but am thinking about it much more today. Part of what Tolkien liked to do was to sort of 'plant' things in his Middle Earth mythology that would be connected to traditions that we carry with us today. After all, that seems to be the apparent 'purpose' of much mythology (which he in large part attempted to emulate) - to create explanations for why things were the way they were. I don't know if all of you are familiar with this custom, but in America these days, it's common for there to be two very young members of a 'wedding party' - a young lady who is called a 'Flower Girl' and a young gentleman who is called a 'Ring Bearer'. I was never a ring bearer myself as a child, and we didn't have those positions at our wedding (my wife's preference - she was afraid they would just be a couple things wrong waiting to happen ). Today however, we had a wedding at our church, and our oldest son, now 7, was the Ring Bearer (which is why I'm thinking of it). So anyway: 'Ring Bearer' (uh - let's save the discussion on comparisons between a wedding ring and a Ring of Power for another thread, OK? ) - carrying a ring, short Hobbit-sized guy, etc, etc. Was Tolkien thinking of this AT ALL when he used the term? In particular, it seems like Aragorn and Arwen use that term often in addressing Frodo after their own wedding. Whatchaguysthink? __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 06-04-2005 at 08:43 PM.

06-06-2005, 07:08 AM	#4
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Then maybe I have it backwards. Maybe LOTR fans here in the USA started the custom of having Hobbit-sized "Ring Bearers" as a part of their weddings! Along about the 50's or 60's... __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

06-06-2005, 07:41 AM	#6
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Most uses I've seen have been someone's cousin or nephew - although I imagine that more and more, people who are re-marrying, or who had a child before marriage - are using this to involve their kids, as you say. __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

06-06-2005, 08:14 AM	#10
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Yeah - I just have to figure I'm in it for the "long haul" - and that if I really want to do it, it may take me 20 years (in which case, sustaining my own interest may be a tough obstacle). Maybe it'll go a little faster once the boys are grown... __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

06-04-2005, 11:47 PM	#2
Olmer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: LI-woods, NY Posts: 653	I think, as I already told you, if you are looking for analogies, you will definately find them. But the Ringbearer in connection with the wedding custom...I don't think Tolkien had in mind this specific meaning. But on another hand, he had boys, and such custom also popular in England...so who knows...? Maybe the idea to call Frodo "a Ringbearer" sprung out of this association. Interesting thought.

06-05-2005, 03:54 PM	#3
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	i disagree totally: never heard of it in england, esp not in tolkien's time I was on the phone to my cousin earler (who is a wedding photograpaher) and i remembered to ask him about it : he's never heard of it - and he's done hundreds of weddings in the uk. Sorry valandil but from my perspective you really are clutching at straws with that one - ps Olmer: did you know we've started a rpg more or less in your honour: the fellowship of the ringwraiths: its still very early doors but it'd be great if you could add the odd post or two either in the rpg or in a directoial sense in the discussion thread, its a bit of fun at the momment: but it could also seriously examine various theories too. try and add a little input when you have a momment, cheers butterbeer

06-06-2005, 07:19 AM	#5
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Agree with the UK contributions: it's not a tradition here. However, people seem to be starting to do it. I think it's a nice way to have your kids involved in the ceremony without freaking them out or risking them dropping the ring down the bog. I had my son (aged 7 at the time) carry the rings from the best man to the minister at my wedding. Also, I'm best man at a wedding in October, and they want him and the bridesmaid's daughter to do the same. I think it's more to do with changing demographics: people getting remarried wanting to give their kids a role.

06-06-2005, 08:32 AM	#11
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Well, it's a great project V. Don't forget that JRRT took about donkeys years to write the Sil, LOTR, etc! Maybe once you've retired

06-06-2005, 03:06 PM	#12
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	Valandil, I had a pleasure to read your Firiel's letters. Awesome! I really hope you will continue and expand them. There are so few fics and studies on Arthedain! Gordis

06-06-2005, 03:31 PM	#13
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	well the gaffer's right, anything (generally) worth doing well takes time: as the gaffer said: look at tolkien: once it started , almost a life's work: worth it though: keep up the good work valandil ! ps olmer: just say if all this 'olmer to join the rpg' stuff is too much! its just a (for sure well meant and genuine) bit of fun: no offence but we are currently struggling to find Nine conspirators ... if you're ok with the recognition (for so it is meant) than fine, if not just say and we'll (I?) will knock it on the head ... best to Valandil and Olmer BB