The Quest of Beren

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-27-2002, 11:29 AM

When Beren and Finrod set out on the Quest of the Silmaril, Beren had the Ring of Barahir. When they were captured by Sauron and he could not learn their names or purposes, where was that ring? If Beren had it with him or was wearing it at that time that would have been a dead giveaway as to their identity don't you think?

claudia silver · 12-27-2002, 12:25 PM

Maybe he sensibly secreted it about his person.

Artanis · 12-27-2002, 03:40 PM

But how could Sauron have known this Ring? Had he seen it before, did he know its history?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-27-2002, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
But how could Sauron have known this Ring? Had he seen it before, did he know its history?

This was the badge of Finarfin's House. I would think it wasn't a secret in Valinor and was seen numerous times by Sauron and Morgoth.

Artanis · 12-27-2002, 04:06 PM

OK, then I agree it's a mystery.

Ñólendil · 12-28-2002, 06:30 PM

Sauron was not in Valinor when Finarfin was, he had fallen into evil long before.

I think there is something in the Lay of Leithien where Tolkien planned Beren to give the Ring to Finrod when he found him, and for Finrod to give it back at his death. Whatever happened, I think it is possible Sauron was not familiar with the "badge" -- it was not the symbol born by his people on banners, I know that much.

Falagar · 12-29-2002, 08:04 AM

And anyway, even if he knew what house of the Eldar they were from, he still wouldn't know their names, nor their purpose.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-29-2002, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
And anyway, even if he knew what house of the Eldar they were from, he still wouldn't know their names, nor their purpose.

No, not their purposes, but he could have known at least who Finrod was. Btw, in the HoMe 3, the Lays of Beleriand, the Lay of Leithian, it sounds as if Thu did know who Finrod was. He speaks of Nargothrond, and the Elven King, and Celegorm paying a king's ransom.

How did he know? In the Sil, it just says that he perceived Finrod as a Noldo of great might and wisdom, and he deemed that in him lay the secret to their errand.

Falagar · 12-29-2002, 02:55 PM

If Beren had the Ring it would be harder. He would then know that Beren was a man high in favour with the people of Nargothrond, but that still wouldn't help him see who the others was.

And it also depends on how "usual" such rings were...

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-29-2002, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
If Beren had the Ring it would be harder. He would then know that Beren was a man high in favour with the people of Nargothrond, but that still wouldn't help him see who the others was.

And it also depends on how "usual" such rings were...

HUH?!

Falagar · 12-30-2002, 02:27 PM

Ñólendil · 12-30-2002, 09:35 PM

Janet, Thû is Thû, not Sauron. In some later version that fact must have changed, or it would not have been as you have read it in The Silmarillion.

BeardofPants · 12-30-2002, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Janet, Thû is Thû, not Sauron. In some later version that fact must have changed, or it would not have been as you have read it in The Silmarillion.

He's still the predecessor of Sauron, though.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-31-2002, 12:13 AM

Dylan, Thu is Sauron, but I do realize that that Lay is part of the old mythology.

markedel · 12-31-2002, 11:00 AM

One would think that the BoLT mythos is the foundation of the SIlmarillion-it's an evolving process, not a series of unrelated stroy cycles. An interesting proof, perhaps, for evolution of other "non-mythological" story cycles.

Elfhelm · 01-03-2003, 09:10 PM

They were disguised as Orcs. I don't recall Sauron seeing through Beren's disguise. Finrod broke disguise to fight him. I think Sauron just thought of Beren as one of the pack who accompanied Finrod.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-03-2003, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
They were disguised as Orcs. I don't recall Sauron seeing through Beren's disguise. Finrod broke disguise to fight him. I think Sauron just thought of Beren as one of the pack who accompanied Finrod.

Not true. It wasn't until after the battle in songs of power that Sauron stripped from them their disguises.

Elfhelm · 01-10-2003, 05:25 PM

Sorry for the late reply. I looked it up and confirmed that you're right, SGH. But I don't see yet why you think Sauron could have known that he was Beren from the ring.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-10-2003, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Sorry for the late reply. I looked it up and confirmed that you're right, SGH. But I don't see yet why you think Sauron could have known that he was Beren from the ring.

Not that he was Beren, but that he had possibly captured Finrod. That perhaps he recognized this ring from Valinor and realized that it was an heirloom of the house of Finarfin, or at least that it was a jewel that had been fashioned in Valinor, telling him that he had a very influentual Elf and Co. in his midsts.

adanedhel · 01-12-2003, 09:08 AM

I would think Sauron would know what Beren looked like, ring or no ring, after all he was sent by Morgoth to hunt him down when Beren was an outlaw in Dorthonion...

From "Of Beren and Luthien":

"Thereafter for four years more Beren wandered still upon Dorthonion.....and the deeds of lonely daring that he achieved were noised abroad throughout Beleriand.....At length Morgoth set a price upon his head no less than the price upon the head of Fingon, High King of the Noldor.......Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron...."

12-27-2002, 11:29 AM	#1
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	The Quest of Beren When Beren and Finrod set out on the Quest of the Silmaril, Beren had the Ring of Barahir. When they were captured by Sauron and he could not learn their names or purposes, where was that ring? If Beren had it with him or was wearing it at that time that would have been a dead giveaway as to their identity don't you think? __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

12-27-2002, 12:25 PM	#2
claudia silver Enting Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: North West England Posts: 58	Maybe he sensibly secreted it about his person. __________________ "The wolf that one hears is worse than the orc that one fears." Boromir

12-27-2002, 03:40 PM	#3
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	But how could Sauron have known this Ring? Had he seen it before, did he know its history? __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

12-27-2002, 04:06 PM	#5
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	OK, then I agree it's a mystery. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

12-28-2002, 06:30 PM	#6
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Sauron was not in Valinor when Finarfin was, he had fallen into evil long before. I think there is something in the Lay of Leithien where Tolkien planned Beren to give the Ring to Finrod when he found him, and for Finrod to give it back at his death. Whatever happened, I think it is possible Sauron was not familiar with the "badge" -- it was not the symbol born by his people on banners, I know that much. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-29-2002, 08:04 AM	#7
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	And anyway, even if he knew what house of the Eldar they were from, he still wouldn't know their names, nor their purpose. __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

12-29-2002, 02:55 PM	#9
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	If Beren had the Ring it would be harder. He would then know that Beren was a man high in favour with the people of Nargothrond, but that still wouldn't help him see who the others was. And it also depends on how "usual" such rings were... __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

12-30-2002, 02:27 PM	#11
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	__________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

12-30-2002, 09:35 PM	#12
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Janet, Thû is Thû, not Sauron. In some later version that fact must have changed, or it would not have been as you have read it in The Silmarillion. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-31-2002, 12:13 AM	#14
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Dylan, Thu is Sauron, but I do realize that that Lay is part of the old mythology. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

12-31-2002, 11:00 AM	#15
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	One would think that the BoLT mythos is the foundation of the SIlmarillion-it's an evolving process, not a series of unrelated stroy cycles. An interesting proof, perhaps, for evolution of other "non-mythological" story cycles. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

01-03-2003, 09:10 PM	#16
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	They were disguised as Orcs. I don't recall Sauron seeing through Beren's disguise. Finrod broke disguise to fight him. I think Sauron just thought of Beren as one of the pack who accompanied Finrod. __________________ cya

01-10-2003, 05:25 PM	#18
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Sorry for the late reply. I looked it up and confirmed that you're right, SGH. But I don't see yet why you think Sauron could have known that he was Beren from the ring. __________________ cya

01-12-2003, 09:08 AM	#20
adanedhel Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Chigago, IL Posts: 40	I would think Sauron would know what Beren looked like, ring or no ring, after all he was sent by Morgoth to hunt him down when Beren was an outlaw in Dorthonion... From "Of Beren and Luthien": "Thereafter for four years more Beren wandered still upon Dorthonion.....and the deeds of lonely daring that he achieved were noised abroad throughout Beleriand.....At length Morgoth set a price upon his head no less than the price upon the head of Fingon, High King of the Noldor.......Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron...." __________________ "Say this to Manwe Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Feanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest." Feanor

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