Why did the Ring betray Isildur?

[Nurvingiel]

I was thinking about how Bilbo was the only person to willingly give up the Ring (admittedly with significant help from Gandalf), and started thinking about the various fates of other Ringbearers. This thread is also partly insipred by the question "Could the Ring be used for good?" in another thread.


A little backstory...

After the Ring was cut from Sauron's hand, Isildur was the first Ringbearer. I think various writings on Isildur indicate that though he was slowly being corrupted by the Ring, he retained some wisdom about the issue. He was seperated from the Ring when it slipped from his finger and Isildur was shot by orcs. The Ring drifted to the bottom of the Anduin to stay in obscurity for the next several hundred years. This we already know, but the important question is why did the Ring abandon Isildur?

Sauron was wandering as a bodiless spirit, and probably couldn't have reclaimed the Ring if it had been thrown through his face. It seems that the Ring wanted to bide its time until Sauron could take it back. Let's not forget that the Ring's goal was to return to its master and cover Middle-earth in a second darkness.


The sixty-thousand dollar question...

However, why not corrupt Isildur and wreak some havocy havoc in the meantime? Why waste a chance to do more evil? I think the Ring chose the safety of the river bed because it sensed the possibility of Isildur using it for good, or that, after lengthly exposure to Elrond's council, he would seek to destroy it. There's no way the Ring could have orchestrated being found by Bilbo, but perhaps he wanted to be found by Gollum or a similar person (easily corruptible). Isildur, unlike the black-hearted Sméagol, was not easily corrupted.

Thoughts?

[Valandil]

Maybe one possibility is just that Isildur had been connected to Sauron's Fall. The Ring may have hated him with Sauron's hatred, such that at the first opportunity to "escape" it would do so... ESPECIALLY if doing so would endanger Isildur.

[Nurvingiel]

Good point Valandil. In that case, the Ring seems to have a personality. Being overcome by hate to get revenge on its enemy... maybe that's part of being imbued with Sauron's malice.

Okay then, do you think it was tactically to the Ring's advantage to abandon Isildur at that point?

Maybe the Ring wanted to be found by the Orcs... except, it specifically chose the river to slip from Isildur's finger, which would make it the One Ring of stupidity if that was its goal.

[Valandil]

What kind of 'senses' might the Ring have to perceive its surroundings though? I think very limited - as far as those we're familiar with: seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting... but perhaps extraordinary in other ways: preceiving thoughts and emotions, etc.

It may not have known that it was in a river. It may not have known what a river really was. It may not have known the laws of physics at all.

Imagine yourself blind - maybe able to feel some things, perhaps to hear garbled sounds - but able to 'hear' thoughts and to know emotions and to have emotions in response. Trying to gather what you can of the world around you - but not always having the ability to do so correctly.

That's only a guess - I don't know if that's how Tolkien perceived the Ring, but it's plausible to me. I think it DID turn out to be a tactical error for the Ring to get itself lost for 2500 years (OTOH - Sauron was out of action for much of that time - and barely in action for almost all of it). However, it may not have known enough to take better action. Also - the 'unseen hand' may have been nudging the Ring, knowing what He could bring about in the next 3000 years if the Ring would abandon Isildur then (and not wishing for Isildur to become the next 'Dark Lord').

[Nurvingiel]

Excellent point Val! Aw crap there's practically nothing left to discuss. I wanted a good discussion in this thread.

I think the Ring was at least very perceptive of people's thoughts, otherwise it wouldn't have been able to manipulate people so well. But you're right, it may not have known what a river was, even if it did hear Isildur's thoughts.

Isildur: I'll escape the orcs by swimming this river invisible!
Ring: I wonder what a river and swimming are? Oh well, screw you Isildur! *bails*

Maybe there are some discussion points left.

1. Do you think Isildur would have become the next Dark Lord? I think it's just as likely he would have destroyed the Ring.

2. Was it an unseen hand, or the unimagineable difficulty of swimming while invisible that aided the Ring? (Think about swimming... in the Anduin... whilst not being able to see your arms. Yeah.)

[Pytt]

1. I don't think he would have been able to destroy the ring. When Elrond, maybe the wisest person in ME,n at least present, urged Isildur to destroy it, but he didn't. Why should he, after weilding the ring for some time, want to do it later? I don't know if he would have been strong enough to be a new dark lord. Not at the same sice as Sauron atleast.

2. I think it was the hand. I don't know if the ring had something to do with it, or it was all the hand.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Excellent point Val! Aw crap there's practically nothing left to discuss. I wanted a good discussion in this thread.

I think the Ring was at least very perceptive of people's thoughts, otherwise it wouldn't have been able to manipulate people so well...

Sorry. And I definitely agree about the perception of thought.

Actually - after I posted the last one, I had a thought which was one step further. The Ring of course was made by Sauron, and for over 1800 years, he had been its owner. Suddenly, Sauron is slain and the Ring is physically removed from him, as well as likely having the mental/emotional bond broken. What a shock that must have been to the Ring! Even if it did not inherit a hatred of Isildur from Sauron, it would likely hate him as the one who took it from its one true master.

EDIT: Cross-post... Attalus just said it so much better than I did!

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=Nurvingiel]Excellent point Val! Aw crap there's practically nothing left to discuss. I wanted a good discussion in this thread.
(from page 1)


as my grandma sometimes used to say, "its good to be wrong sometimes" - it'd always struck me as an odd saying mind you

going backto page 1 : i think the ring did deliberatly "betray" Isildur, although i really can't see how "betray" could mean anything in this situation: because Isildur may be wearing the ring but is not yet the ringlord, or the ring does not yet (if ever??) see him as its master, therefore it could not betray isludir, as it was acting (whether from malice and hatred of him IIsludur), or from its own will -being in part that of Sauron's influence on its design etc) actually being faithful to its master (i.e. Sauron):


or just trying to kill him or escape? I don't think ilsudur could have useed the ring for good, but the ring may have known that in time ilsudir's will would be strong for it (in terms of controlling him rather than him controlling it)- though the ring would still have changed corrupted and altered Isuldir either way over time

boy this is a good topic and don't know whrer to start: so aplogies if act as a DR who in this (time distortion ref: topics and points nas already in the contuinum) and work through the htread as and when i havethe time - which i don't just now - gotta go.

[me9996]

Maybe it thought that the orcs would find it...

P.S.
Post 490!!!