Sauron's Mighty Temple at Armenelos

[Valandil]

In "Akallabeth" Sauron works his way to ever-growing influence over Ar-Pharazon. Then, he did this:

... But Sauron caused to be built upon the hill in the midst of the city of the Numenoreans, Armenelos the Golden, a mighty temple; and it was in the form of a circle at the base, and there the walls were fifty feet in thickness, and the width of the base was five hundred feet across the centre, and the walls rose from the ground five hundred feet, and they were crowned with a mighty dome. And that dome was roofed all with silver, and rose glittering in the sun, so that the light of it could be seen afar off; but soon the light was darkened and the silver became black. For there was an altar of fire in the midst of the temple, and in the topmost dome there was a louver, whence there issued a great smoke. And the first fire upon the altar Sauron kindled with the hewn wood of Nimloth, and the crackled and was consumed; but men marvelled at the reek that went up from it, so that the land lay under a cloud for seven days, until slowly it passed into the west.

Sauron goes on from there to begin human sacrifices of the Faithful at this temple, purportedly to grant eternal life to the other Numenoreans.

Anyway - there's much to say on what this shows about how far the Numenoreans had fallen or been led astray - and what they tolerated, and how blasphemous it all was.

But I actually wanted to talk about the architecture.

This dome is just IMMENSE! Really - the description makes me think of an ancient Roman temple called "The Pantheon" (still in existence today), a temple to all the Roman gods - but I think Sauron's was about 3X the size!!

The Pantheon has a spherical dome overhead - and the walls from the ground to the base are exactly the same height as the dome - which is half the width of the dome. In other words, if the spherical form of the dome continued to the lower half, the very bottom of it would only just touch the ground.

Now - one thing I've always wondered about Sauron's Dome: Was the TOP of the Dome at 500 feet above the ground - or was the BASE of the Dome at 500 feet above the ground (making the top at 750 feet - assuming it was perfectly spherical)?

While the latter would be more impressive in height, the former has the same harmonious relationship as the Pantheon.

By taking the words most literally, it sounds like the taller version, but "the walls rose from the ground five hundred feet..." could be taken to mean a continuous rise from the ground, to the base of the dome, and then on up the dome to the very top. I just wonder if Tolkien was inspired by, and thinking of the Parthenon when he wrote this - and trying to describe something similar in form but greater in scale.

Any takers on this theory?

[Landroval]

the walls rose from the ground five hundred feet, and they were crowned with a mighty dome

It seems to me that the base itself of the dome was at 500 feet.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Valandil

The Pantheon has a spherical dome overhead - and the walls from the ground to the base are exactly the same height as the dome - which is half the width of the dome. In other words, if the spherical form of the dome continued to the lower half, the very bottom of it would only just touch the ground.

Now - one thing I've always wondered about Sauron's Dome: Was the TOP of the Dome at 500 feet above the ground - or was the BASE of the Dome at 500 feet above the ground (making the top at 750 feet - assuming it was perfectly spherical)?

While the latter would be more impressive in height, the former has the same harmonious relationship as the Pantheon.

By taking the words most literally, it sounds like the taller version, but "the walls rose from the ground five hundred feet..." could be taken to mean a continuous rise from the ground, to the base of the dome, and then on up the dome to the very top. I just wonder if Tolkien was inspired by, and thinking of the Parthenon when he wrote this - and trying to describe something similar in form but greater in scale.

Any takers on this theory?

Funny you mention that Val (if you remember our old acquaintance, Karl!) I was just thinking about that the other day. I've got downloaded an excellent version of Sil on audio, and I often listen to various chapters to help me sleep.
I was just on that part, and I really did think "bloody hell, that’s a big bugger of a temple."
Do you think its practical, from an engineering point of view?

The free standing spherical opening gains its structural support from the design and the solidity of its base, right? And unless we assume the Numenorians had mastered re-enforced concrete, is the structure physically viable?

Hey Val, it may not be an answer, but at least i'm interested, eh?

Fenir/Finn

[Landroval]

Seeing that the descendants of the numenoreans in Middle-Earth still had enough skill to build Isengard, which could resist virtually any kind of stress, I believe that the numenoreans themselves had what it took to make that temple.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Fenir_LacDanan

:
:
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The free standing spherical opening gains its structural support from the design and the solidity of its base, right? And unless we assume the Numenorians had mastered re-enforced concrete, is the structure physically viable?

Hey Val, it may not be an answer, but at least i'm interested, eh?

Fenir/Finn

Hi Fenir,

I've long suspected something like reinforced concrete would have to be used at the Argonath (maybe Orthanc as well).

Both the Pantheon and Brunelleschi's dome (in Florence?) use a rib and ring approach - so that the dome is not of a constant thickness, which would be a real killer in terms of load if it was. Further, the ribs would taper and the rings get smaller, the higher you rise up the dome. And - neither of those used reinforced concrete of course - although they were 142' and 143' in diameter respectively - not the 500' recorded for Sauron's temple.

I think a combination of clever engineering and perhaps some advanced technology might get it done. We're told that the walls were 50' thick (we can assume at the base anyway). That might be thick enough to get it done, but I don't care to try and run the numbers on it now.

Besides - I think it's supposed to be big enough to fit into a "mythical" type story setting. That leaves us an element of "how did they manage to build a thing THAT big?" in the story - and part of the answer lies in the legendary aspect of a once-great civilization, don't you think?

PS: If that tape didn't put you to sleep, just keep on reading my posts.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Hi Fenir,

I've long suspected something like reinforced concrete would have to be used at the Argonath (maybe Orthanc as well).

With the Argonath, I always assumed it was hewn from the living rock of the mountains they stood beside or from some existing formation (like the Sphinx), negating the need for re-enforced concrete.
And Orthanc, given it's linear and essentially basic design, would really only be large blocks of stone, one on top of the other.
I recon anyway!

Originally Posted by Valandil

Besides - I think it's supposed to be big enough to fit into a "mythical" type story setting. That leaves us an element of "how did they manage to build a thing THAT big?" in the story - and part of the answer lies in the legendary aspect of a once-great civilization, don't you think?

PS: If that tape didn't put you to sleep, just keep on reading my posts.

Fall asleep? no mate, this is a bit interesting. You're right about the mythical aspect, and all the structures mentioned are done so to demonstrate the power of Numenore at its height, thereby making their downfall all the more tragic.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Both the Pantheon and Brunelleschi's dome (in Florence?) use a rib and ring approach - so that the dome is not of a constant thickness, which would be a real killer in terms of load if it was. Further, the ribs would taper and the rings get smaller, the higher you rise up the dome. And - neither of those used reinforced concrete of course - although they were 142' and 143' in diameter respectively - not the 500' recorded for Sauron's temple.

I think a combination of clever engineering and perhaps some advanced technology might get it done. We're told that the walls were 50' thick (we can assume at the base anyway). That might be thick enough to get it done, but I don't care to try and run the numbers on it now.

Oh, and I suppose that one really must give credit to Tolkien for making the structure at least plausible. Not a lot of writers would have mentioned the 50 foot thick walls. It doesn't have to be likely, just possible, and our imagination does the rest.

and hey, if those world cup stealing Italians can do it to 143 feet, then Numenore can do it better!

[trolls' bane]

Interesting topic of discussion. I don't think I ever read that passage very carefully, but... WOW!

[jammi567]

It's certainly az topic i've never seen before.

[Beor]

Sauron was a pretty powerful dude, and this was prior to him locking much of his power in the ring (?) (Its been a while, man, give a dude a break), so even if you do run the numbers and its not possible without some technology we have now, that they probably didnt have then (though what could that be, I dont see anyone wearing any mythril armor, so we cant be that advanced), it can still be passed to the fact that Sauron is of the Maiar. Plus, cmon, man, they were Numenorians! The master race, dude. Like the Vikings.

[Voronwen]

While the latter would be more impressive in height, the former has the same harmonious relationship as the Pantheon.

I could agree with this. (And as a somewhat-related side note, i have to disagree with the last poster that the Numenoreans were anything like Vikings i think we're dealing with a much more classical culture, here.) However...

By taking the words most literally, it sounds like the taller version, but "the walls rose from the ground five hundred feet..." could be taken to mean a continuous rise from the ground, to the base of the dome, and then on up the dome to the very top.

This is how i always read it.

I have always imagined Numenorean architecture to be a substantial yet ethereal mix of Classical, Romanesque, and High Gothic styles - all beautifully ornamented and on a lavishly grand scale.