the origin of trolls

[Radagast The Brown]

what's the origin of the trolls?
in the hobbit when the trolls petrifieded, gandalf said that the trolls had been made from the rocks. (forgive me, I'm not so good in english and i really don't know how to say it right, i know it's wrong)

in lotr the ent treebeard said that the trolls had been made (sorry again) from the ents themselves.

[Wayfarer]

Mmmm...

It was not gandalf, but tolkien (the narrator) that made the comment about trolls being made from stone. But you're essentially correct, it was something like 'the stuff of earth from which they were made'

Trolls were made in mockery of ents. After all, even melkor would be hard pressed to turn tree-men into stone creatures.

The appendices do write that trolls had existed in the dawn of time, and that the dark lords had only shaped them, and I believe tolkien speculates that trolls may have been made from men, but I doubt that either of these origins would have accounted for their becoming stone in daylight.

My personal pet theory is that they were somehow animated out of the rock, like the pre-adoption dwarves.

[Radagast The Brown]

Maybe Melkor took some ents and some rocks and created a new creature - trolls? it could be, no? it's like the two details we have together.

[azalea]

I remember reading elsewhere that Tolkein later decided that Melkor wasn't able to create, only pervert, so that's where the idea that they were altered men or ents came from. I also remember the theory that the ent wives became the trolls, but I don't know that the timeline fits. I think trolls were around before the entwives were lost, and besides the trolls we met in The Hobbit are obviously male.

[Ñólendil]

Tolkien went through several different ideas concerning the origin of Trolls. The earliest statement about them was an isolated note from Tolkien in an early LotR draft, describing them as "Orkish spirits put into stone". Because of conflicting ideas, their origins are more hazy and uncertain than are that of Orcs. (Many people believe Orcs were made from Elves because of what was printed in The Silmarillion, but this is not the case, or at least it is not certainly so).

In Myths Transformed VIII ("Orcs") Tolkien muses

And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense? Or trolls? It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but were 'tinkered' with by Melkor.

On this Christopher Tolkien comments:

In The Lord of the Rings Appendix F (I) it is said of Trolls:
In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them what little they could learn, and increasing their wits with wickedness.
In the long letter of September 1954 cited in note 1 he wrote of them:
I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence (though here I am of course only using elements of old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested. Of course ... when you make Trolls speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) cnnotes the possession of a 'soul'.

In Myths Transformed IX, Tolkien writes:

This suggests -- though it is not explicit -- that the 'Orcs' were of Elvish origin. Their origin is more clearly dealt with elsewhere. On epoint only is certain: Melkor could not 'create' living 'creatures' of independent wills.

He (and all the 'spirits' of the 'First-created', according to their measure) could assume bodily shapes; and he (and they) could dominate the minds of other creatures, including Elves and Men, by force, fear, or deceits, or sheer magnificence.

The Elves form their earliest times invented and used a word of words with a base (o)rok to denote anything that caused fear and/or horror. It would orginally have been applied to 'phantoms' (spirits assuming visible forms) as well as to any independently existing creatures. Its application (in all Elvish tongues) specifically to the creatures called Orks -- so I shall spell it in The Silmarillion -- was later.

Since Melkor could not 'create' an independent species, but had immense powers of corruption and distortion of those that came into his power, it is probably that these Orks had a mixed origin. Most of them plainly (and biologically) were corruptions of Elves (and probably late also of Men). But always among them (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes. (These would exhibit terrifying and demonic characters.)

The Elves would have classed the creatures called 'trolls' (in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings) as Orcs -- in character and origin -- but they were larger and slower. It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types.

Christopher Tolkien writes: [quote]At the bottom of the page my father wrote: 'See The Lord of the Rings Appendix p. 410'; this is the passage in Appendix F concerning Trolls.

It seems possible that his opening words in this 'This suggests -- though it is not explicit -- that the "Orcs" were of Elvish origin' actually refer to the previous text given here, VIII, where he first wrote that 'Elves, as a source, are very unlikely', but later concluded that 'it remained there terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs'. But if this so, the following words 'Their origin is more clearly dealt with elsewhere' must refer to something else.

He now expressly asserts the earlier view ... that the Orcs were in origin corrupted Elves, but observes that 'later' some were probably derived from Men. In saying this (as the last paragraph and the reference to The Lord of the Rings Appendix F suggest) he seems to have been thinking of Trolls, and specifically of the Olog-hai, the great Trolls who appeared at the end of the Third Age (as stated in Appendix F: 'That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power.'

In Myths Transformed X, J. R. R. Tolkien gave his final idea on the Orcs, which was that they were bred entirely from Men and not Elves at all, but the latest Troll-explanation I know of is the one given above, that "they were corruptions of primitive human types." Of course this means that Treebeard was rather incorrect when he declared that Trolls were made in mockery of Ents, and Orcs of Elves. One must remember that Treebeard is not Tolkien, is not one of the Wise and does not know everything. Though, there does appear to be a connexion of some sort between Ents and stone. Tolkien once said that the Ents had power over stone, but the explanation is unfortunately illegible.

And the issue of Trollish spirits, just as the Orkish spirit issue, is not really dealt with in the end. If Morgoth or Sauron made Trolls by corrupted primitive humans, and that state was heritable, why would Eru "tolerate" this by giving the new Trolls spirits? Or did Trolls breed after the manner of Men? And what is their connexion with stone, why do the Stone-trolls turn into stone when exposed to sunlight, if they were not made from stone? Were the Olog-hai made from Men? Why did they not turn to stone? In the Appendices Tolkien says that they were "filled with the evil spirit of their master". This is very similar to what Morgoth used to do. Glaurung was able to have independence and was not a mere "puppet" because he was filled with the spirit, power and will of Morgoth. Sauron seems to have done the same with the Olog-hai.

So I guess I agree with Wayfarer, which is no longer now an uncommon occurance (I suspect he's wizened up). I dunno. The theory that makes most sense to me is the bodies of the Stone-trolls were made from the rocks of the earth, in some time or place in which the holy Sun was not shining, and their bodies were either filled with the spirits of Orcs, primitive Men (or both), or were merely filled with a part of the spirit of Melkor (or Sauron). I don't the latter is a possibility, because creatures filled with the will of the Dark Lord (Melkor of Sauron) tend to have magical abilities (like Dragons, or the One Ring of Power). I suspect the Olog-hai were magical. If Trolls did not breed, than I suspect in the beginning an amazing number of them were made, and since spirits were needed it did not go well for Orcs, or Men (or both). Every once a while maybe new ones would be made. In this way the Trolls of The Hobbit may very well have gotton their treasures first-hand from the Fall of Gondolin.

[Entlover]

Heavy-duty.

When Tolkien said the Ents had power over stone, I believe he was referring to the ability of plantlife to crack sidewalks, etc as the Ents demonstrated at Orthanc, freezing onto the stones and pulling them apart like a tree in fast motion.

[ArwenEvenstar]

in TTT in chapter entittled Treebeard, he says something to Merry and Pippin and if I can find it I'll post it


*goes through new copy of TTT*

Can't find it in short notice I'll read the chapter tonite and post tomorrow...


*mutters "now where is it???????"*

[ArwenEvenstar]

this is probally useless but:

Maybe you have heard of trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of the Ents, as orcs were of Elves.

Theres a bit more but ya kno.

[Christiana]

trolls,it is said, were bred by Melkor because he desired a race as poerful as the ents....as ents were to wood trolls were to stone...

[BeardofPants]

I'm with the perverting theory, as opposed to the creating one.

I remember reading elsewhere that Tolkein later decided that Melkor wasn't able to create, only pervert, so that's where the idea that they were altered men or ents came from. I also remember the theory that the ent wives became the trolls, but I don't know that the timeline fits.

Wasn't there something in the appendices regarding the perversion of entwives?

[Christiana]

erm..not in a b c or d.

[Llark silverwolf]

lol trolls are stupid i think they were ents and the orcs combined and made the ugly stupid trolls oh did i mention ugly trolls thats my theory

[Minyacamiel]

does anyone really like the trolls? I mean, do they speak a diff. launguage?

[Radagast The Brown]

Llark silverwolf, i think that the trolls were made from ents and rocks, and if you want orks (becaus ewe don't know for sure that they weren't made from something else).

[Archbob the Elder]

Its quite simple. An ent married a rock and out came trolls.

[Ñólendil]

does anyone really like the trolls? I mean, do they speak a diff. launguage?

What do you mean? Within the world? Some trolls had no more language than beasts. The Hill-trolls of the Trollshaws spoke a "debased form of Westron" which has been translated into English. The Olog-hai, superior Trolls made by Sauron at the end of the Third Age, spoke the Black Speech and were intelligent (which is terrifying, considering their awesome size, power and wickedness).

The Hill-trolls of the Trollshaws and Ettenmoors appear to have kept to themselves, mostly. Cave-trolls lived alongside Orcs and other foul things in the depths of the Misty Mountains. The Hill-trolls of Mordor fought alongside the rest of Sauron's legions, and so too did the Mountain Trolls of the Ash Mountains, or so it would appear. No one knows much about Snow-trolls.

[Christiana]

Originally posted by Ñólendil

No one knows much about Snow-trolls.

much?i dont know anything!

[Ñólendil]

Oh, they're mentioned once in the Appendices. Helm Hammerhand was likened to a Snow-troll, as he hunted his prey (the Dunlendings) in the snows of the White Mountains. No one knows what they looked like or where they lived or anything. They lived in the snow and they apparently stalked their prey.

[Christiana]

o

[Galenavar]

First off, a little note to Nolendil. WOW!!!!! I have got to get me a copy of this book! Do you have the answers to everything?!

Anyway, I believe I remember the Tolkein Encyclopedia saying something about the Olog-hai being made from Ents and... something else, don't remember what, so that Morgoth would have a force that could stand up against the Ents...or something like that.