His Dark Materials

[The Gaffer]

I did a search and was surprised that there is no thread already devoted to this excellent trilogy.

I read it fairly recently (nicked it off son #1), wondering what all the fuss was about, and was astonished. A really beautiful story with some great ideas and strong messages.

Anyone else read it? What were your thoughts?

[cassiopeia]

It's a brilliant series, quite possibly my favourite book after The Lord of the Rings. I think the love story weakened the trilogy, but overall it's a great adventure with a lot of detail and thought gone into it. Wonderful stuff.

[The Gaffer]

I really like the love story. I thought that it tied the whole thing together and helped to get the message across.

I thought that the parallel worlds represented each of our subjective experiences of the world.

That Lyra and Will inhabit mutually exclusive worlds was an analogy for how we can never REALLY know what it is like to be someone else. Nevertheless, we know that they're there!

The way Pullman used this in the context of two kids going through adolescence was wonderful. I howled like a baby at the end.

What made you feel it weakened it? What did you like about it?

[BeardofPants]

Eeet's been done beeeefore Gaffaaaaar Blind git.

The first one was amazing, the second one was pretty good, the last one was pretty disappointingly weak, IMO. The love story bugged the crap out of me... but then lotsa things bug the crap out of me.

[durinsbane2244]

wow, im glad this series has a thread, i loved it, in fact, im on the amber spyglass for my second time through!

i love all books like this that take that theological twist, and the love story had to be there for adam and eve!

great books!

[Lotesse]

The title of this thread immediately caught my eye and pricked up my ears; however, I've no idea what books you all are talking about. Is this some hidden Tolkien material I should seek out? Whose "dark materials"? Dark material is right up my alley -

[Falagar]

Dark material is, If I Remember Correctly, a (hypotetical, undetectable) substance suggested by scientists in order for a few theories about the Universe to make sense. What relevance it has to the books...well, read and find out.

The first one was amazing, the second one was pretty good, the last one was pretty disappointingly weak, IMO. The love story bugged the crap out of me... but then lotsa things bug the crap out of me.

I loved the love-story, and I'm not usually a big sucker for such things.

[cee2lee2]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I really like the love story. I thought that it tied the whole thing together and helped to get the message across.

I thought that the parallel worlds represented each of our subjective experiences of the world.

That Lyra and Will inhabit mutually exclusive worlds was an analogy for how we can never REALLY know what it is like to be someone else. Nevertheless, we know that they're there!

The way Pullman used this in the context of two kids going through adolescence was wonderful. I howled like a baby at the end.

Well said! I don't think the books would have been so powerful without the love story. And yes, I "howled" too. But as much as I liked the story, it's not something I'm willing to plough through again. (Gave my books to sis-in-law; need to ask her what she thought of them.) Almost felt as if I were more exhausted than anything else when I finished. Tolkien doesn't do that to me.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Eeet's been done beeeefore Gaffaaaaar Blind git.

The first one was amazing, the second one was pretty good, the last one was pretty disappointingly weak, IMO. The love story bugged the crap out of me... but then lotsa things bug the crap out of me.

* shivers *

But thanks for the link, Your Pantsness.

His Dark Materials is a trilogy by Phillip Pullman. Girl saves the universe from badness, while growing up. Too much grooviness to go into right now.

[Lotesse]

Thanx 4 the info, you guys!

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

But thanks for the link, Your Pantsness.

When I said thanks, I should of course have said no thanks at all for the dud link. I did do a search before starting the thread but didn't find anything.

Anyhoo, so what do you all think about Dust? Groovy concept, but what is it, what does it mean? etc.

[BeardofPants]

Dud link? Frick 'n poop. It werked when I posted it.
Eh well, induhvidual linkies will hafta do:
Old link
Toasty
Crusty

You may lick my toes now.

Actually, you know what bugged me more than the love story? The whole god-concept in the third book. I mean, I'm as atheist/agnostic as they come, but I thought that was a bit... overkill.

Oh, and Gaffar? Not only are you blind, you're also amnesiac

[tolkienfan]

I used to really like this series. My favorite book was The Golden Compass. I liked The Amber Spyglass too, but the ending was a little weird. I haven't read the books for a while, but I remember that the most annoying thing about the ending for me was Pan! Didn't he end up as a ferret-ish thing? I was so sure he was going to be ermine, and then it isn't even specific about what animal he is! The ending was kind of sad too, but it was okay.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Dud link? Frick 'n poop. It werked when I posted it.
Eh well, induhvidual linkies will hafta do:
Old link
Toasty
Crusty

You may lick my toes now.

mmmmm. cheese.

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Actually, you know what bugged me more than the love story? The whole god-concept in the third book. I mean, I'm as atheist/agnostic as they come, but I thought that was a bit... overkill.

Oh, and Gaffar? Not only are you blind, you're also amnesiac

Heh, it would seem so. Wonder why it didn't come up when I searched?

God concept: yes, not the most subtle of devices it has to be said. I suppose you gotta remember that it's a kids' book. It did make me laugh though: God being a decrepit prisoner of his own "servants".

I also can't remember what her daemon ended up as. I suppose the point is that it ended up as something.

[Willow Oran]

Dark Materials is a difficult story to plough through. I thought it was worth it though. The religiousness of the third book bugged me a bit at first but at least it gets the reader thinking a bit. I think the only part that I really didn't like was the anticlimatic ending. There was all that build up and a lovely subtle romance and in the end it just died and they had to move on with their lives. It could've used a bit more closer than that.
The youth program at our local theater is putting on an adaptation of the series in two parts this summer. The first part is being acted by the 9-14 year olds and the second part by the 15-18 year olds. I'm really excited to see how it turns out, especially since Tano is assistant directing. It should be fun to see it on stage.

[Bran]

Personally, I loved the love story aspect of the books, and thought it was really importent to the story. In fact, the whole Adam and Eve plot wouldn't have worked if Lyra were not tempted and had not fallen in love with Will, and the whole Adam and Eve thing is the core of the story. You can't have His Dark Materials without the love story.

These are among my favorite books ever, and I highly recommend them. I'd also like to point out that Pullman himself said he didn't have anything against spirituality, and that he is a spiritual person himself. But he does have a problem with Religion, and the organizational aspects of Religion that can be so damaging to societys, as seen in His Dark Materials, in which the church is basically a huge evil Empire. And that they're so taken with the idea that's it's there place to save the world from evil(their idea of evil), and will go to such great langths to it, like violence, they basically become the badguys.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Bran

But he does have a problem with Religion, and the organizational aspects of Religion that can be so damaging to societys, as seen in His Dark Materials, in which the church is basically a huge evil Empire.

Yes, and that is obviously just absurd. Organized church has at times done damage and things that are wrong. Disorganized churches-particularly cults-commonly do things that are even worse. Organized churches have been at the heart of massive relief efforts, such as for Hurricane Katrina, and are involved in relieving poverty and ending violence in many of the darkest places of the world. Organized churches have brought economy, education and hope to many people that are desperate. Organized church in the Medieval Ages was for centuries the heart of culture, society, art and education. Basically every good thing that existed in the world existed because of and through the organized Roman Catholic Church.

Of course there have been abuses too. There have been times where the church ignores its own doctrines, and these occasions are more obvious in organized church than non-organized church, because organized churches are so much more visible. The point is human nature. There are non-Christian Christians, just as there are non-Muslim Muslims and non-Buddhist Buddhists, and so on. We are all people. There can be problems with organized churches, but there can also be major problems, and many times worse problems, in areas outside of the influence of organized church.

Originally Posted by Bran

And that they're so taken with the idea that's it's there place to save the world from evil(their idea of evil), and will go to such great langths to it, like violence, they basically become the badguys.

It can happen. But Philip Pullman is being absurd in his books. The Christianity he presents is so, so, so, so far from the truth that I don't get concerned at all by it. I know other Christians who are worried about Philip Pullman's books and about how "the devil is using them." Well, perhaps the devil is using them, but the lie is just so blatantly obvious that I don't personally get very worried about it. Philip Pullman should do research about the organized church in a way that doesn't focus solely upon the Spanish Inquisition, if he wants to paint an accurate picture .

Originally Posted by Bran

Personally, I loved the love story aspect of the books, and thought it was really importent to the story. In fact, the whole Adam and Eve plot wouldn't have worked if Lyra were not tempted and had not fallen in love with Will, and the whole Adam and Eve thing is the core of the story. You can't have His Dark Materials without the love story.

Probably true . It is weird to me how young they are, but I know that in some cultures that happens. I don't get bothered by it in a very deep way, and I know that these particular two kids mature very quickly. People who have had extreme or harsh types of experiences often do mature swiftly.

Originally Posted by Bran

These are among my favorite books ever, and I highly recommend them.

They are great books indeed . Very well done writing, good plot structure, good narrative, good characters, good fantasy .

[cee2lee2]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

....But Philip Pullman is being absurd in his books. The Christianity he presents is so, so, so, so far from the truth that I don't get concerned at all by it. I know other Christians who are worried about Philip Pullman's books and about how "the devil is using them." Well, perhaps the devil is using them, but the lie is just so blatantly obvious that I don't personally get very worried about it. Philip Pullman should do research about the organized church in a way that doesn't focus solely upon the Spanish Inquisition, if he wants to paint an accurate picture .

When I first read the books I was a little concerned about Pullmans's presentation of Christianity, but after thinking about it, I agree with you. His representation is so extreme that it bears no connection to my faith.

These books are not easy to read but they are worth the effort. However, I probably won't read them again (gave my copies away) as I do others such as Lord of the Rings, the Narnia series, or Pride and Prejudice.

[Bran]

I think it is true that Pullman took his attack on Christianity to an extreme, and I think it's true that there was a good side to these organized religions that he his not representing. But I think we also do need to take into acount how evil the church truely was, and how much of that Pullman had to draw from. What about the Cruesades? The church couldn't control their knights, whose bloodlust would drive them to ride throw towns slaughtering all in their path only to satisfy their own bloodlust. So what the Pope do? He came up with the idea of sending them all out to murder a bunch of people for living in there homeland, and throw them out of their own city. Propaganda is spreaded, and they end up doing it nearly a dozen times. That's just plain evil. Even if the crusades went underway because of the reason the propaganda said it was, they still didn't have a good enough reason to kill the amount of people they did. The church did some really terrible things in the middle-ages.

What about the witch hunts? And sending missionarys to foreign countrys and telling the people there to stop practicing there own religion and to shed their own culture to take on anothers. And if the people refused, we'd kidnap their kids and send them to camps where we'd rape them of their haritage, and force our own upon them. Is that an understanding and compassionate church? And all of this in the name of GOD? I can see why maybe Pullman has a hard time dwelling on the good side of Christianity.

I also don't think he's completely agains't organization. The way he had Asriel starting a republic, one that wouldn't force it's views on it's citizens and drive them into submission through fear, to face off with the one who did, was obviously showing that there was hope in his mind for a republic that could actually work. Even the ending, in which Lyra speaks of "the Republic of Heaven, purposes that a republic could be good, it's just that we haven't had one yet. The message I get from the books isn't that Pullman is completely anti-organizational, but merely an idealist. He was merely showing us how bad organization could get, and has gotten, so that we may see how much better it could get, and hopefully someday make our own "Republic of Heaven".

[The Gaffer]

That last point was, for me, the key thing.

The representation of the Church as an Evil Empire was extreme (though one might argue around just how inaccurate it was), but the main attack was on how the Church attempts to hijack individuals' spirituality in order to control us.

Pullman's alternative is to build the Kingdom of Heaven in our heads.