Better than LOTR?

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

i agree with anyone who thinks the LOTRS is better than the hobbit. i think that the hobbit is more of a children's book and lighter the the LOTRS.as we have disscussed, the LOTRS is more darker and for older kids and adults, such as the hobbit is more lighter and for the younger kids. but all in all, the LOTRS IS THE BEST!!!

[Elanor]

Originally Posted by Tamuril Sirfalas

the riddle game was so cool. i especially liked the riddle gollum made about the fish but i cant remember all of it so could you guys help me out?
i think it goes:
alive without breath,
as cold as death
ever drinking
never thirsting... thats all i can remember hope i said it right!!

Alive without breath,
As cold as death;
Never thirsty, ever drinking,
All in mail, never clinking.

Gandalfthegray, you hate hobbits?

I don't think LotR is necessarily darker than the Hobbit. It has more dark moments, but it also has plenty of light-hearted ones. The generalization I would make is that it's more complex.

But I would also say that the elves in the Hobbit are inconsistent with those in the Lord of the Rings. In LotR, you couldn't imagine elves like Elrond and Glorfindel hopping around singing, "Tra la-la-lally", and teasing the dwarves. But in the Hobbit, they do.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

Originally Posted by Elanor

Alive without breath,
As cold as death;
Never thirsty, ever drinking,
All in mail, never clinking.

Gandalfthegray, you hate hobbits?

I don't think LotR is necessarily darker than the Hobbit. It has more dark moments, but it also has plenty of light-hearted ones. The generalization I would make is that it's more complex.

But I would also say that the elves in the Hobbit are inconsistent with those in the Lord of the Rings. In LotR, you couldn't imagine elves like Elrond and Glorfindel hopping around singing, "Tra la-la-lally", and teasing the dwarves. But in the Hobbit, they do.

thanks Elanor!! i think i will get the whole riddle because i know there is more to it but tanks for the first verse!!

[durinsbane2244]

the cold hard lands,
they bites are hands,
they gnaws our feet.
the rocks and stones,
are like old bones,
all bare of meat.
but stream and pool,
are wet and cool;
so nice for feet!
and now we wish-

"ha! ha! what does we wish?" he said, looking sidelong at the hobbits. "we'll tell you," he croaked. "he guessed it long ago, Baggins guessed it." a glint came into his eyes, and sam, catching the greal in the darkness, thought it far from pleasant.

alive without breath;
as cold as death;
never thirsty ever drinking;
clad in mail, never clinking.
Drowns on dry land,
thinks an island
is a mountain;
thinks a fountain
is a puff of air.
So sleek, so fair!
what a joy to meet!
we only wish,
to catch a fish,
so juicy sweet!

that's pages 227-228 of the two towers, first two pages of the passage of the marshes...you owe me one...

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

the cold hard lands,
they bites are hands,
they gnaws our feet.
the rocks and stones,
are like old bones,
all bare of meat.
but stream and pool,
are wet and cool;
so nice for feet!
and now we wish-

"ha! ha! what does we wish?" he said, looking sidelong at the hobbits. "we'll tell you," he croaked. "he guessed it long ago, Baggins guessed it." a glint came into his eyes, and sam, catching the greal in the darkness, thought it far from pleasant.

alive without breath;
as cold as death;
never thirsty ever drinking;
clad in mail, never clinking.
Drowns on dry land,
thinks an island
is a mountain;
thinks a fountain
is a puff of air.
So sleek, so fair!
what a joy to meet!
we only wish,
to catch a fish,
so juicy sweet!

that's pages 227-228 of the two towers, first two pages of the passage of the marshes...you owe me one...

oh thankyou soooo much! i dunno how to repay you. how? pmme or whatever. lol but whats the first one about? i cant recall seing that one.

[Elanor]

Originally Posted by Tamuril Sirfalas

thanks Elanor!! i think i will get the whole riddle because i know there is more to it but tanks for the first verse!!

What I posted was all that Gollum says in the Hobbit. I knew there was more but he makes it up later, so it's technically not part of the riddle.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

Originally Posted by Elanor

What I posted was all that Gollum says in the Hobbit. I knew there was more but he makes it up later, so it's technically not part of the riddle.

well thankyou anyway!

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

I enjoyed The Hobbit very much. Of course, my first choice would be The Silmarillion. I did enjoy reading LOTR, but I think I prefer The Hobbit.

[inked]

A book of the writing of The Hobbit! An interview with the author/editor is here:

http://radio.nationalreview.com/betw...A3NzM1NmU5MmE=

Since I've read all of the HoME, I shall have to read this, too.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

This is like comparing The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe with Out of the Silent Planet.

One is a kids story and the other is an adult's story. What does "better" mean in that context? Not much.

[BeardofPants]

Just because one is an apple, and one is an orange, doesn't mean that you can't "like" one better than the other, though.

Ah, stoopid 90 second rule.

[Curufin]

Agreed - I recognize the fact that you can't really compare LotR and The Hobbit - but that doesn't mean I have to like the Hobbit, either.

I just have a great deal of trouble reconciling the Elves in The Hobbit with the elves in The Silmarilion...

*tries again*

*head explodes*

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Want a migraine? Try reconciling either of them with those in the movies!

Is your problem with Thranduil's wood elves or with the singing Rivendell elves? Or both?

[Curufin]

Both, honestly. But more the singing Rivendell elves.

They were supposed to be (at least some of them) Noldor!

Yes, Tolkien has Elves fond of singing throughout the legendarium. But they sing things like the Noldolantë or Galadriel's Lament...

Not 'tra la la lilly'!

It was just hard for me to accept it as the same universe, because they acted so differently.

And don't get me started on the movies.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I'm not sure Elves lived an entirely melancholy life, though, even in the third age. This might be especially true of the Sindar and other grey and dark Elves, but even of remaining Noldor. Think of Sam's description of Galadriel, for instance.

Work calls or I'd quote it. Back in an hour or so....

[Curufin]

Hmm, I don't know. I think that by the Third Age melancholy and regret would be a major feeling among most elves...for the Noldor, of course, there's the Prophecy of Mandos:

'And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after.'

And for Elves more generally, the Athrabeth speaks of memory becoming a heavy burden...

I think that by this point there would be very little joy in elves. Regret, yes. Nostalgia, yes. But any light-heartedness for the present?

Very little, I fear.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Here is what I was thinking of:

Beautiful she is, sir! Lovely! Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di'monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime.

The Elven Rings had an attenuating effect on the rate of decay, yes? Perhaps that relates to the ability to maintain joy in Rivendell and Lorien. Looking also at the banter between Elrond and Bilbo and to a lesser extent Elrond and Sam in LotR, you can't help but see a sense of humor there. I see the Elves in general as anything but dour.

Does this invalidate the prophecy of Mandos? Not to me, because he gave no hard time frame. Even Rivendell and Lorien succumbed to the waning after the power of the Rings failed.

Besides, I don't know the population of Rivendell, but one would guess it numbered in the high hundreds if not thousands. Any group that large is going to have a handful of tree-climbing, singing fools.

[Curufin]

Oh, I wouldn't say "dour" either.

But I do think they're sad, and nostalgic. Burdened by memory, by Arda Marred, and by the Prophecy of Mandos.

That doesn't mean that they're depressed all the time, or walk around with their heads in rainclouds, but it does mean that they're less likely to be as frivolous and carefree as the elves in the Hobbit. I can see them as having humour, yes, but of a very dry sort - not a silly, clowning around type of humour.

The Rings might have had some effect, but not that much. The fading in Middle Earth was due to Melkor's Marring, which was certainly more powerful than any good that might have come from an Elf-made ring, even if it was made by a descendant of Fëanor.

And look, I have more posts than you already.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Both, honestly. But more the singing Rivendell elves.
They were supposed to be (at least some of them) Noldor!

Originally Posted by DPR

Besides, I don't know the population of Rivendell, but one would guess it numbered in the high hundreds if not thousands. Any group that large is going to have a handful of tree-climbing, singing fools.

I don't think the population of Rivendell by the end of the third age was that large: a few hundreds, I guess - at most, and likely even less.

And very few of them were Noldor (at least not Calaquendi Noldor who had come from Aman). Actually the latter may be easily counted. Gildor Inglorion +his wandering company + Glorfindel + other two Elves that were deemed powerful enough to ride on their own against the nazgul.

Glorfindel: There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south. [...] It was my lot to take the Road

Of what kind were the rest of Rivendell elves? Maybe Sindar, maybe Silvan. They had no bad memories to prevent them from singing 'tra la la lilly'!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Are you assuming that any and all Noldor from Aman could ride against the Nazgul or is there evidence of this?