Gandalf about to die?

Strange-Looking Lurker · 01-02-2002, 07:15 PM

Just before the eagles came and saved them, it says that Gandalf was about to jump down and kill as many goblins as he could and die that way. I find it hard to beleive that so few goblins could have killed him. Was this just a mistake made by Biblo?

Ñólendil · 01-03-2002, 02:52 AM

I don't think so, the narrator's pretty distinct from the main character in The Hobbit. Gandalf wasn't invulnerable, I'm sure the Goblins would have killed him (there were a great many of them there for one thing, and hundreds and hundreds of Wargs). The fall off the tree is painful enough, but they have spears, and numbers, and demonic wolves. He's only human.

Spock · 01-03-2002, 12:43 PM

I think the numbers and the fact that Gandalf's powers hadn't come into full strength (based upon later works) played a part in the escape .

Wayfarer · 01-03-2002, 06:01 PM

Somehow, I always imagined him jumping down onto a gorest of spears, and being impaled, but smushing a bunch of orcs as he landed.

Strange-Looking Lurker · 01-03-2002, 06:12 PM

But I mean, come on, this is the Gandalf that killed a Balrog! What are a few goblins and wargs to him? I think that Biblo just didn't realize how powerful Gandalf really was.

Wayfarer · 01-03-2002, 06:26 PM

A single, skilled opponent can often be easier than a horde of minions all attacking at once.

Spock · 01-06-2002, 01:31 PM

A point illustrated in Princess Bride where Andre the Giant says he hasn't practiced fighting just one opponent he's used to fighting whole villages.
The fighting principle applies but so does the logic.

Gandalf The Grey · 01-06-2002, 01:55 PM

Gandalf would not die because of Goblens.

Ñólendil · 01-06-2002, 05:45 PM

Why not? He was injured by Goblins, after the Battle of Five Armies he had his arm in a cast. The narrative says 'that would have been the end of him'. There was an army of Goblins down there with many weapons, and an army of Wargs. Gandalf wouldn't have stood a chance.

Wayfarer · 01-06-2002, 05:56 PM

Dylan! Bursting a fanboy's bubble, are we?

Strange-Looking Lurker · 01-07-2002, 10:40 AM

Yea, it says he was about to die. But remember that it was Biblo who wrote that. Probably before FOTR as a matter of fact. He wasn't really aware of just how powerful Gandalf was.

Ñólendil · 01-08-2002, 08:56 PM

*begins poking bubbles*

Tolkien translated Bilbo's story, which was written by him _of course_, but in the translation he appears to have altered the point of view. Same with the Lord of the Rings, Frodo is 'Frodo', not 'I' or 'me'. 'That would have been the end of him' may have been a comment from Tolkien, based on his studies (though judging by his Gollum-comments he hadn't yet translated the other parts of his Red Book copy that dealt with the War of the Ring), or it could be Bilbo's impression at the time, as you say. But I think it's reasonable to suppose Gandalf would have died. He was falling off a tall tree, no, leaping off a tall tree in a fiery wreck on top of an army of Wargs and Goblins with spears. He would have killed many of them, as The Hobbit says, but he would have died too. It's not like in Moria Gandalf turned around and started killing off hundreds of Orcs, leaving Aragorn to lead the Fellowship over the bridge. They would have killed him if he had tried, there were just too many. Numbers may not matter if we're talking about smirfs, but these are Orcs.

Agburanar · 01-09-2002, 05:19 AM

At that point in the hobbit Gandalf is very much the grey. I have no doubt that they would have killed him. By the time the fellowship got to Moria Gandalf had a lot more help and knew of Saruman's treachery so had begun his transformation to the White. When Gandalf and the fellowship encountered wargs going south below Charadras Gandalf only scared them off. Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli killed many more which would have eaten Gandalf had he been alone. Gandalf had to flee from the black riders on Weathertop and there were only nine of them, there were about nine hundred orcs and wargs below those fir trees!

Strange-Looking Lurker · 01-09-2002, 09:34 AM

Hmm...perhaps y'all have a point, although I'm still not sure about it. I do want to point out though that nine Nazgul are much worse than nine hundred goblins!

Agburanar · 01-09-2002, 10:03 AM

Yes, but what about 9 black riders? The Nazgul of books 2 and 3 are much more powerful than the ringwraiths of book 1.

Lightice · 01-09-2002, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Agburanar
Yes, but what about 9 black riders? The Nazgul of books 2 and 3 are much more powerful than the ringwraiths of book 1.

They weren't less powerful. They were same creatures with same powers. However, their point was secrecy. They didn't want to be noticed at that time, but stay intimidative. They were just as hard to notice, as nazgul could be made. If they would had used their full powers, there might had been minior problems, that could be easily avoided, so they did. It's hard to imagine, why they would be less powerful.

Strange-Looking Lurker · 01-09-2002, 06:43 PM

They were more powerful when they were closer to Morder.

Renille · 01-13-2002, 11:34 AM

That, and they had flying steeds in books 2 and 3. They were more "scary" that way.

Agburanar · 01-14-2002, 09:00 AM

They were more powerful because Sauron was growing in strength all the way through the books and their power grew as his did.

afro-elf · 01-14-2002, 10:49 AM

Can you state reasons why you feel 9 Nazgul are worse that 900 Goblins

01-02-2002, 07:15 PM	#1
Strange-Looking Lurker Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: OK, USA Posts: 213	Gandalf about to die? Just before the eagles came and saved them, it says that Gandalf was about to jump down and kill as many goblins as he could and die that way. I find it hard to beleive that so few goblins could have killed him. Was this just a mistake made by Biblo? __________________ <hr>Check out my site: www.christianjugglers.org

01-03-2002, 02:52 AM	#2
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I don't think so, the narrator's pretty distinct from the main character in The Hobbit. Gandalf wasn't invulnerable, I'm sure the Goblins would have killed him (there were a great many of them there for one thing, and hundreds and hundreds of Wargs). The fall off the tree is painful enough, but they have spears, and numbers, and demonic wolves. He's only human. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-03-2002, 12:43 PM	#3
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	I think the numbers and the fact that Gandalf's powers hadn't come into full strength (based upon later works) played a part in the escape . __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 01-03-2002 at 12:51 PM.

01-03-2002, 06:01 PM	#4
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Somehow, I always imagined him jumping down onto a gorest of spears, and being impaled, but smushing a bunch of orcs as he landed. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-03-2002, 06:12 PM	#5
Strange-Looking Lurker Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: OK, USA Posts: 213	But I mean, come on, this is the Gandalf that killed a Balrog! What are a few goblins and wargs to him? I think that Biblo just didn't realize how powerful Gandalf really was. __________________ <hr>Check out my site: www.christianjugglers.org

01-03-2002, 06:26 PM	#6
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	A single, skilled opponent can often be easier than a horde of minions all attacking at once. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-06-2002, 01:31 PM	#7
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	A point illustrated in Princess Bride where Andre the Giant says he hasn't practiced fighting just one opponent he's used to fighting whole villages. The fighting principle applies but so does the logic. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

01-06-2002, 01:55 PM	#8
Gandalf The Grey Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20	Gandalf would not die because of Goblens.

01-06-2002, 05:45 PM	#9
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Why not? He was injured by Goblins, after the Battle of Five Armies he had his arm in a cast. The narrative says 'that would have been the end of him'. There was an army of Goblins down there with many weapons, and an army of Wargs. Gandalf wouldn't have stood a chance. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-06-2002, 05:56 PM	#10
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Dylan! Bursting a fanboy's bubble, are we? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-07-2002, 10:40 AM	#11
Strange-Looking Lurker Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: OK, USA Posts: 213	Yea, it says he was about to die. But remember that it was Biblo who wrote that. Probably before FOTR as a matter of fact. He wasn't really aware of just how powerful Gandalf was. __________________ <hr>Check out my site: www.christianjugglers.org

01-08-2002, 08:56 PM	#12
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	begins poking bubbles Tolkien translated Bilbo's story, which was written by him _of course_, but in the translation he appears to have altered the point of view. Same with the Lord of the Rings, Frodo is 'Frodo', not 'I' or 'me'. 'That would have been the end of him' may have been a comment from Tolkien, based on his studies (though judging by his Gollum-comments he hadn't yet translated the other parts of his Red Book copy that dealt with the War of the Ring), or it could be Bilbo's impression at the time, as you say. But I think it's reasonable to suppose Gandalf would have died. He was falling off a tall tree, no, leaping off a tall tree in a fiery wreck on top of an army of Wargs and Goblins with spears. He would have killed many of them, as The Hobbit says, but he would have died too. It's not like in Moria Gandalf turned around and started killing off hundreds of Orcs, leaving Aragorn to lead the Fellowship over the bridge. They would have killed him if he had tried, there were just too many. Numbers may not matter if we're talking about smirfs, but these are Orcs. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-09-2002, 05:19 AM	#13
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	At that point in the hobbit Gandalf is very much the grey. I have no doubt that they would have killed him. By the time the fellowship got to Moria Gandalf had a lot more help and knew of Saruman's treachery so had begun his transformation to the White. When Gandalf and the fellowship encountered wargs going south below Charadras Gandalf only scared them off. Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli killed many more which would have eaten Gandalf had he been alone. Gandalf had to flee from the black riders on Weathertop and there were only nine of them, there were about nine hundred orcs and wargs below those fir trees!

01-09-2002, 09:34 AM	#14
Strange-Looking Lurker Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: OK, USA Posts: 213	Hmm...perhaps y'all have a point, although I'm still not sure about it. I do want to point out though that nine Nazgul are much worse than nine hundred goblins! __________________ <hr>Check out my site: www.christianjugglers.org

01-09-2002, 10:03 AM	#15
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	Yes, but what about 9 black riders? The Nazgul of books 2 and 3 are much more powerful than the ringwraiths of book 1.

01-09-2002, 06:43 PM	#17
Strange-Looking Lurker Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: OK, USA Posts: 213	They were more powerful when they were closer to Morder. __________________ <hr>Check out my site: www.christianjugglers.org

01-13-2002, 11:34 AM	#18
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	That, and they had flying steeds in books 2 and 3. They were more "scary" that way. __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

01-14-2002, 09:00 AM	#19
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	They were more powerful because Sauron was growing in strength all the way through the books and their power grew as his did.

01-14-2002, 10:49 AM	#20
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Can you state reasons why you feel 9 Nazgul are worse that 900 Goblins __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 01-14-2002 at 10:50 AM.

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