who is............

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

yeah the Elven king seemed unecessairly nasty and shallow for one so wise. Beorn was my favorite character i think.

Now hold on a moment... let's think of this from Thranduil's point of view. A group of 13 (since they didn't find Bilbo) wanderers turn up in your kingdom without your leave, disturbing your people at a feast three times, and then refusing to tell you their business when questioned.

That's just information from the Hobbit! Given that it was two Dwarves who killed Thingol (IIRC), it's not entirely unfair for him to be suspicious of Dwarves - at least ones who appear in his kingdom without stating their business. This doesn't even take into account dealing with Dol Guldur without the use of an Elven Ring!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

not to mention other grievances between eldar and naugrim

slightly rambling away, but was not thranduil, son of oropher, one of thingol's kin?

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Now hold on a moment... let's think of this from Thranduil's point of view. A group of 13 (since they didn't find Bilbo) wanderers turn up in your kingdom without your leave, disturbing your people at a feast three times, and then refusing to tell you their business when questioned.

That's just information from the Hobbit! Given that it was two Dwarves who killed Thingol (IIRC), it's not entirely unfair for him to be suspicious of Dwarves - at least ones who appear in his kingdom without stating their business. This doesn't even take into account dealing with Dol Guldur without the use of an Elven Ring!

All well and good in so far as it goes, which is why i partly include the " in one so wise": a reference to all the other information available outside of "the hobbit" which most certainly is NOT available in THIS BOOK: for sure "Tharanduil" as we later learn in different books: i.e find out what his name is etc does not appear Elven wise in this book "The hobbit" which i beleive this thread is about?

My point is that reading the Hobbit (reference this being about THE HOBBIT ONLY???) he actually does come across - having absolutely no other information (as in pure chronological FACT neither does Tolkien at this point) as a pleasant character. Fine -take later points which to some degree are almost certainly partially revisionist - build in the total history of the eldar and middle earth as justification -BUT JUST DO NOT DO IT IN THIS CONTEXT!! We are talking about "the hobbit" and at this point no other explanation is forthcoming or even in actual reality penned by Tolkien.


therfore we have no reason at all in the hobbit to justify the king of the elves from being a nasty character - as this WAS the first of tolkiens's books i read at an early age i contend i am quite right to answer the question "which character didn't like etc" with the King of the elves! Esp when after Rivendell you expect the elves to be wise, helpful and benign to any enemies of Orcs or Dragons etc! (again on the information we are given at this point).

quote: A group of 13 (since they didn't find Bilbo) wanderers turn up in your kingdom without your leave, disturbing your people at a feast three times, and then refusing to tell you their business when questioned.

well with utmost respect Nurvingiel, 13 dwarves returning the only really practical way home (doing nothing really wrong) to their ancestral home, in dire straits, in need of food and succour is hardly a criminal offence:

"IN YOUR Kingdom Without your leave" - are you then suggesting Tharnduil ran a police state? It seems a bit much that lost, weary hungry dwarves should be so badly treated by a begnign wise elf lord?

As i recall the book, anyway,the elves did not stop and ask WHY the were being disturbed nor question the dwarves or help them out despite their obvious distress, they put the lights out and silently disappeared!

My point in a somewhat more concise form is this: in the Hobbit itself non of this is made clear: all we know is how it seems from the Dawrves and Bilbo's perspective: therefore how can it be anything but (for someone who first read the hobbit before reading any other Tolkien work - and at this point Tolkien himslef had not even written the words you refer to?) a unsavoury character trait of the Elf king in light of what we are actually told? I also beleive from memory that Tolkien more or less implys that the Elf King's motives rae actually greed: i am sure thats in ther in some form for certain. You must remember that The Hobbit and LOTR and the SIL are literally worlds away in reality though JRRT does very well at trying to reconcile them as he goes into depth in his world.


PS i'd like to say i have no conspiracy theories about elves etc unlike some interesting and thought-provoking posters out there - but must defend myself in this case: in the HOBBIT the 'king of the elves' is no mate to bilbo or the dawarves ( our central heroes) = FACT.

Thanks for the reply though! i was beginning to think i was persona non grata or something?? - Like this post'll definetly help!

[strider8]

The character(i hope i spelt it right) i didn't like the most was the goblin king

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by strider8

The character(i hope i spelt it right) i didn't like the most was the goblin king

yup looks spelt right to me: yeah he wasn't that helpful either was he?

[EarthBound]

Hmmm, I'm really undecided here:

1. The spiders were scary & evil, though born to it, so not exactly at fault for what they were...still I didn't like the discussions about their meals looking juicy...yuck!

2. The goblin king when he thinks to eat the dawrves scarred me also ( I first read this in the '70's....I was just a wee one.

3. I wasn't happy with the elven king for being so unhelpful to the dawrves in the woods, then threw them into their jail when they clearly needed help and advice.

4. THE TROLLS........notice I don't like things that might eat you.

5. The politician, master, at Laketown was greedy and lazy, but then that's a fairly regular human trait, evil??? YES but scary??? NO and scary is what made me stop surfing (SHARKS!!!!)

6. Gollum wanted to eat Bilbo......enough with the eating of hobbits!@

7. The wolves or wargs or whatever, but for whatever reason didn't scare me..........never ever been scared of canines....always knew I was tougher LOL

8. One ill-tempered dragon that....go figure.....wanted to eat everyone...sheesh

And the winner is...............I didn't like the king of the elves because I expected more from him and he hindered instead of helped.....everyone/everything else was just acting out its disagreeable nature.....I give the elves no excuse...I expect much much more of them...

[Something]

My favourites: Gandalf and Bilbo.

[Lenya]

Like your name Something. Does it mean anything? Or maybe nothing?

[Something]

Something means something to me
Something is me.
Nothing is nothing.

[Lenya]

And everything means something, but nothing really means anything...
And now I'll stop, I'm babbling

[Butterbeer]

i don't know... it depends how you read it ... in one way it's quite profound

[EarthBound]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

i don't know... it depends how you read it ... in one way it's quite profound

Ok, I started a thead many moons ago on this subject (my Don't Panic thread) anyhoo my thought went like this....

You can't make something from nothing...so there is no such thing as "nothing", nor will there ever be, because there never was....I think the two notions of "something/nothing" are exlusive to each other by design. I'm taking this to a physics/phylosphy level not how many cookies have disappeared from my kitchen counter....

[Lenya]

More phylosphy than physics I believe. Classic answer: there is nothing in a vacuum

[JTB]

I didn't like Bilbo when he found the Arkenstone. I mean come on! It was Thorin's dead grandfather's!! Bilby wanted to keep it. How RUDE!

But I really didn't like the Master of Lake-Town.

[francod]

the wood elves, flash in flash out, let's have crazy picnics in dangerous woods. jackasses

[Lenya]

good one. Hate to admit it, but they are really stupid in the Hobbit.

[francod]

I have to say, Bilbo taking the one thing Thorin had dibbs on. I mean you have years and years of acumulated treasure and you have to take that. That is known as busting balls where I am from. It was very petty and small selfish and downright adverserial. This is Bilbo at his absolute worst. Great point Jtd

[francod]

I for one enjoy your thoughtful well researched posts. Keep the scholary posts coming.

[Finrod Felagund]

It sure did piss of Thorin...

[Valandil]

OK FF - stop being a 'smelly orc'