*Unofficial* Hobbit Discussion Project

[Elvengirl]

I've been wanting to post in here, but haven't really had the time.

Originally posted by Lizra
I'm not sure where a Hobbit settlement could be tucked away and neatly hidden at this point though!

This is off topic, but doesn't PJ have the set of Bag End? I believe he's said that he plans to find an ideal location in New Zealand and build it into the ground and live there. I thought that was a cool idea.

But I know what you mean Lizra, I remember how much smaller my city used to be and my quiet, peaceful neighborhood. Now as I look around and see cars and constuction everywhere, I think to myself. "When exactly did this happen?' It is kind of sad. But it's nice to drive out of the city and see the geen countrysides and froested ares.

As I was reading over the first chapter I found it amusing to see Bilbo's character and imagine him running around puffing heavily and his distaught face as one of his biggest worries is having enough seed cakes. Then I thought about how much his character changes by the end of the book, how much he transforms, by going out into the world and having these adventures. A being can grow so much by experiencing life and the different challenges it presents.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Lizra
Sure if you want Val, But you don't need to to go to any trouble just for me. I'd be fine with you just posting the things that caught your eye in this chapter....your favorite bits. But you do whatever turns you on. I love The Hobbit!

btw - it's 9 days now, and I've scanned much of the chapter and made 'mental notes' - hope to do that post soon indeed!

[Valandil]

A party is a fun thing, is it not? In this chapter, JRR Tolkien introduces us to the Third Age of Middle-earth - and to another creature besides the Elves, Men and Dwarves he has already been writing about (though none of it had yet seen the light of day). He introduces us to 'Hobbits' - and sets the stage for a very nice story, which so many of us here have come to love. It could easily be seen as a mere children's story - especially if it stood alone, and was not followed by the much more mature and well-developed The Lord of the Rings. However, it is what it is, and it seems quite fortuitous that so much of the casual references to peripheral elements to the story - as well as story devices themselves, were so well suited to be woven into the subsequent work.

As I read this book, even beginning with this chapter, I can't help but have the feeling that it's transcribed, word-for-word from a modern-age father or grandfather telling a story to a child. For one, there are the asides; stopping to tell us a thing or two about Hobbits, asking what WE would do if a strange dwarf suddenly did such-and-such. There's the choice of words, the humor (I just love the part about how Thorin's father went away 'a hundred years ago last Thursday') and the creation of a world that is so very different (and assumption that it will just be accepted as described) - yet filled with people, who have differences of note, yet to whom we can relate so readily.

To me, the writing is just so... charming!

In some ways, this chapter has three parts:

1. Good Morning

We start with a general description of Hobbits (live in nice comfy holes, short, bright clothes, no shoes - but hair on top of their feet, like to eat a lot, don't have 'adventures'), some specific background about our one particular Hobbit (well-to-do, lives alone, father from a 'respectable' family... though his mother's kin - the Tooks - were prone to the occasional indiscretion... 'an adventure'!), a certain Mr. Bilbo Baggins, and a morning exchange between him and a wizard... name of Gandalf, whom Bilbo Baggins fondly remembers from his younger years. We see, as Gandalf does, that Bilbo has apparently changed from those days. He has... grown up, I guess. Not knowing who he is, Bilbo greets Gandalf with a warm 'Good morning', they converse and Bilbo, getting uncomfortable and realizing he's not enjoying the company, tries a 'Good morning' in a different tone to get rid of him. At this point, Gandalf says, "What a lot of things you do use 'good morning' for!", and reveals who he is. Bilbo has a sudden 'lapse' into childhood, but regains his composure. Still unsure about all this, he soon tries to excuse himself, but winds up inviting Gandalf for tea the next day.

2. Tea for Two... Make that Fifteen! AND for Supper... AND to Stay the Night!

A comical little sequence: By afternoon of the next day, Bilbo had totally forgotten about inviting Gandalf for tea... until the doorbell rang! He rushed about to get things started, ran to the door, pulled it open with an apology forming on his lips and saw... a dwarf. A stranger at that! The dwarf came in as though he was expected, introduced himself as Dwalin and Bilbo seated him for tea. At the next ring of the bell, another dwarf appeared - by name of Balin - and said he could see that 'they were beginning to arrive' which caught Bilbo a little off-guard. When the next two dwarves came, they went on in to 'join the throng'. Soon Bilbo was hip-deep in dwarves - Gandalf arriving with the very last group, which also included Thorin, a 'very important dwarf' They had come with a wide variety of colored hoods and cloaks and they started to make great demands of food and drink - and here we see Tolkien doing what he does so well; telling us the details of all the particulars. We have green hoods, blue hoods, yellow hoods, a weather-stained green hood, a sky blue hood - we have seed cakes and apple tarts and mince-pies and pickles. (Why do I get hungry reading Tolkien?) We don't just have 'food and drink' - we're told about every item that comes to the table. This helps us really visualize the scene quite vividly... to feel more like we could be there! Bilbo soon learns that the dwarves intend to stay longer than for just tea-time.

3. We Must Away Ere Break of Day...

These thirteen dwarves (and one wizard) have come for more than just tea. More indeed, than food and overnight lodging. They're launching an expedition... a quest... an adventure! It is to a land far, far from where Bilbo lives. It's to recover the gold they consider their own. It's to take vengeance on... a DRAGON! One of the most fearsome creatures of fairy tales, a fire-breathing dragon. They seem to have come to Bilbo's home on the assumption that he's going WITH them! And as a burglar, no less... Preposterous! Why would Bilbo consider doing such a thing? And why on earth would THEY think he would, never having met him. Ah... but we see that Gandalf led them to think so, perhaps counting on the 'Took' side of Bilbo's makeup to rear its head. At first, Bilbo is completely resistant, but he's got some feistiness in him. When the dwarves make known to Gandalf THEIR doubts about Bilbo, he decides that he WILL do it... just to prove these dwarves wrong! We get more information about the dragon, his raid, 'The Lonely Mountain' and Thorin's family history... along with display of a key and a map. Initial plans and agreements are made and Bilbo scrambles around once more, getting everyone else settled in for the night. Laying down and relaxing, he starts to have doubts about whether he's actually going to go through with this...

[Valandil]

Discussion Questions:

1. Was Bilbo sort of a 'push-over' in letting Gandalf sway him? In even letting the strange dwarves IN for tea? In agreeing to go on this very dangerous adventure... when he seemingly had no need to do so?

2. What were your thoughts the very first time you read this chapter? If that was long ago... and you've read a lot more Tolkien since then, how are your thoughts about it different now?

3. What points in this chapter do you find particularly entertaining? Thought-provoking? Humorous? What 'grabs' you? Do you like or dislike the tone - as oriented more for children, perhaps? I used the word 'charming' to describe the writing. Do you agree? What single word would you use to describe it?

4. Would this story have become / remained a popular children's book without The Lord of the Rings ever having been published? Why or why not? Would it have ever gone beyond that to be more appreciated by adults without LOTR?

5. This chapter includes a few songs. Which of the songs do you like most, and why?

6. There's much mention of smoking. Bilbo sits outside his door and smokes as we begin the chapter. Gandalf and Thorin smoke during the 'party'... and there's much made of their 'smoke rings'. In the 1930's we were not so aware of the dangers of smoking. Do you think Tolkien would have taken any of this out if writing the book today? If you have read this to children, do you skip any of this, add commentary - or just read without making comments on the smoking?

[Elvengirl]

Thank you Val Very nice summary! I especially like the note you put in on how Tolkien's story telling is likened to a grandfather telling a child. I never thought about that before, but now I agree and yes charming is exactly how I would describe it.

1. I hadn't thought of Bilbo as a pushover. Though Gandalf did give him that push out the door, I don't believe he would've ever gone had the "Tookishness" not awoken in him and had he not secretly desired to see mountains, strap on a sword, and go exploring. As for letting all the dwarves in for tea, he was maintaining his role as a hospitable host. Being a hobbit, it was something he was quite accustomed to, even if he was overwhelmed by the number of unexpected guests.

2. Hmmm, the first time I read this chapter I was 10. After reading the first sentence I couldn't put it down. This book was unlike any I had read before, having dwarves, dragons, wizards, adventures, and well, of course, hobbits. I found it exciting and amusing. My thoughts since then haven't changed much except to appreciate it more and pay closer attention to details.

3. "...this most excellent and audacious hobbit - may the hair on his toes never fall out! "
I could list out he many humorous lines, but I think I have in another thread, and it's getting late.

4. "The Hobbit" has been well loved by children and adults since it came out. I think it would remain so, had "The Lord of the Rings" not been written. It was a novel idea and well written. I don't see why it would not become a classic and well loved by all ages.

5. I like the song about the Lonely Mountain. Just picturing the dwarves playing their instrument and the firelight and singing about treasure and reclaiming it......it's enchanting.

6. Even though I detest cigarettes, I never had a thought about the smoking mentioned in the story. It seemed to just add to the character of the hobbits and to Gandalf the colored smoke rings added to his wizardry. It never made me desire to try it, so I never really thougt it might influence another. If I were to read the books I probably would not omit it from the story.


I'm glad the discussion has started.

[Maegondowen]

1. I didn't perceive Bilbo as a pushover either. He just needed that little bit of encouragement and everything else I would just attribute to his character and his 'Tookishness' like Elvengirl said.

2. I read the book for the first time when I was 7 years old and I was fascinated right from the very first sentence. I remember wishing I was living in Bilbo's world. I felt it very easy to relate to Bilbo and the hobbits in general. Back then I perceived hobbits as being very similiar to myself (at 7 years) because I cherished peace and being sort of overlooked by the tall people (=grown-ups ). I mean, where I grew up it was as if us children were living in a different world. We had our own adventures, challenges, funny and sad moments, etc. Writing this makes me feel a little sad that all of that innocence is gone but I can revisit some of it reading 'The Hobbit' so I do that every 3 or 4 months.

3. I love the humour of this chapter just like is has been said before. It was a humour I found funny as a child but I still chuckle reading it nowadays - 'a hundred years ago last Thursday' indeed.

4. I believe that 'The Hobbit' still would have been a successful children's story because the story is itself finished and one can read it without having the feeling that the book itself is not completed.

5. I praticulary like the song about the Lonely Mountain. It just conveys the mood of that moment in an awesome way and somehow I always was able to visualize the dwarves singing it very easily.

6. Well, I read the book first when I was 7 so I was very impressionable back then but I have to say that I've never ever touched a cigarette in my life nor have I had the desire to do so. I just imagined it to be part of the story and no, I wouldn't skip over the part when I was reading the story to any children.

[Lizra]

Thanks for the effort Val! Very nice!

I wouldn't call it pushover for Bilbo either. Well.......maybe you better define pushover for me! Anyway....I see Bilbo getting snared by/because of his pride. He saw himself as a hobbit of gentility. He certainly wasn't going to let a famous wizard, and a gaggle of dwarves think that hobbits were not as refined and well mannered as any of the other races of ME. ...Especially a Baggins!

His pride is what also let Gandalf sway him. He didn't want Gandalf to think he was afraid, or made of less sterner stuff than his esteemed Took ancestor.

I can't remember my thoughts of so long ago Val. I imagine I was rushing through in my hasty way (very pleased to have stumbled upon a book that wasn't boring)...some things never change! Then, as now, I'm sure I visulized everything. The few illustrations were hardly enough!

I already mentioned, dwarven hood, stocking, and beard color are very interesting. Also, the meal and lighting descriptions of Bag End. The pipe smoke rings and neatly brushed hairy feet are lovely. I love the forthright and engaging tone. I wish all books were written this way. A single word to describe it? "Captivating"

This book does not need LoTR (to be successful) at all. I read The Hobbit first, and went totally gaga over it. Gave an oral book report and got all red and hot in the face because I was gushing and carrying on so about it!

I certainly remember the times when smoking was considered cool, I am not offended by the charming descriptions. I might offer an explanation ( hobbits didn't realize how bad smoking was for your health back then, probably one of the reasons they were so short ) if asked, by a "moldable" youngster, but no need to apologize.

[The Gaffer]

Just a quick response re: smoking.

I always loved the smoking references, and though it didn't make me start, once I had started I made sure I learned to blow big, juicy smoke rings and shoot little ones through them. Never mastered the colour changing, nor the ship from LOTR (which I always regarded as slightly vulgar)!

I think what's attractive about it is that it's a mundane activity made magical, and magic used for the mundane (if that makes sense). Using "magic" to perform trivial tricks makes it seem just a natural aspect of the setting of the story.

I'm pretty sure that if he were writing now, the tabs police would insist on editing out the smoking references in a kids' book!

This, and the references to a "greener" age firmly places the Hobbit in an age of innocence, where we didn't have to pay the price for our comforts. It's also a theme that comes back in LOTR, a foreshadowing of industrialisation after the dominion of men.

[Elvengirl]

Just curious Lizra, were you an adult when first reading the Hobbit?

[Lizra]

No, I was a freshman in high School. I don't remember how I got wind of it! That was 1970, and I guess I was about 14.

[Valandil]

To answer my own questions a little:

I was also around 14 or so when I read it first... either in 8th or 9th grade, I think. Some other guys who were neighbors and nominal friends and schoolmates told me how good it was, and how I had to read it - and how 'The Lord of the Rings' was even BETTER, but how I should read THIS first, etc. Maybe that wasn't a fair question for us who first read it so long ago, but I CAN say that the more I read this / other JRRT writings, the more I like them... the more I appreciate them. LOVE that detail! There's less of it in the bits we get in 'The Silmarillion' and so forth, but I suspect THAT work would have expanded into 12 or 20 books - full of the same level of detail as 'Hobbit' and LOTR - it JRRT had been able to have his way with it.

In many ways, even though 'The Hobbit' was a hit when it first came out, I don't think it would have achieved quite as much success if it had not been followed by 'The Lord of the Rings'. IMO, the latter 'completed' the former, in a sense.

All your responses about smoking are helpful. Wanting to read it to my own children before too awful long (and having skipped the smoking references in my first attempt of a few pages a couple months ago), that's reassuring. I had already thought to explain to them that people didn't know smoking was bad for them back then... but I especially liked Lizra's suggestions about Hobbits not knowing that, and that's partly why they're so short ('stunts their growth' indeed! ).

Surprised nobody mentioned the song about "Carefully, carefully, with the plates!"

[Radagast The Brown]

2. When I started to read The Hobbit, I thought it must be boring, you know, an old book, for old people. Back then, the only book I had read was Harry Potter (the first 4 books). My sister was quite annoying, trying to push me to read the book, so I did. And look what I am now.
Right now, when I'm reading it, I think how different it is than the way it used to be. I think it changed for me, and only for best.

3. I tthink that the 'Good morning' part is hilarious. It's just great. Work of a genious. I also liked to read Bilbo's thoughts during this chapter, what he thinks abolut the dwarves and Gandalf. How he's trying to be polite. (when he asks Thorin if they'd stay for the night and he says yes, for example).

4. I guess it would - perhaps not in Israel though;( ) from some reason not many read books lately. But it would probably be a succes, if any book would be. I can't see why would it be changed, after so many years.

5. I don't knonw... I've never put any attention on the songs.

6. Haven't thought about it. I believe I would comment that smoking is dangerous.
It depends if Tolkien woyld still be smoking today with the knowledge about smoking.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
5. I don't knonw... I've never put any attention on the songs.

Hah - makes me laugh! You know, when I was younger, I have to admit I used to SKIP all the songs and poems. Now I enjoy those along with the rest of it.

[Radagast The Brown]

I skipped all the songs in LOTR and The Hobbit. I really did think it's awfully boring. I still do. I don't like poems/songs in books. I don't know why.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I skipped all the songs in LOTR and The Hobbit. I really did think it's awfully boring. I still do. I don't like poems/songs in books. I don't know why.

Maybe in growing older, you also will grow more patient for them, as did I.

[Radagast The Brown]

Maybe. *skeptical*

Anyway... about the first point of discussion - what's push-over? Like, easy to be manipulated (not having a better way saying it?)
I think, if I understand the word, that Gandalf didn't make that much effort to drag him to the journey. But it is said that Bilbo, when the dwarves discussed about him, that his Tookish side suddenly appeared - his will to be called audacious (???) or so. So it wasn't entirely Gandalf, in my opinion... it might've been different with another hobbit.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Maybe. *skeptical*

Anyway... about the first point of discussion - what's push-over? Like, easy to be manipulated (not having a better way saying it?)
I think, if I understand the word, that Gandalf didn't make that much effort to drag him to the journey. But it is said that Bilbo, when the dwarves discussed about him, that his Tookish side suddenly appeared - his will to be called audacious (???) or so. So it wasn't entirely Gandalf, in my opinion... it might've been different with another hobbit.

Yes, a 'push-over' is someone who lets themselves be forced or coerced or manipulated into doing something rather easily and maybe regularly.

[Artanis]

My answers to Val's questions:

1. I agree with the other people here, Bilbo was an adventurer in his heart, he only needed Gandalf's help to discover that Tookish part of himself. To overcome the expectations of his neighborhood.

2. I don't remember what I thought particularly of the first chapter, but for the book in general: It IS a long time since I read the Hobbit first time. In fact I was disappointed, I had read LotR and found it to be THE book, and went to the Hobbit with high hopes, expecting it to be something similar. Later, when I had learned that it was supposed to be more of a children's book, I was able to read it again and more appreciate the book with its own qualities. But the Hobbit is still not a favourite among Tolkien's works.

3. I appreciate the fine humour in the conversations. I also thought it was funny the way the Dwarves completely took control over Bilbo's house, not to mention his kitchen and food store, to Bilbo's great distress.

4. Yes, I think it would have been a popular book both among children and adults, even without LotR. The book is quality. (Not that quality is any guarantee for success, but ... )

5. I have no favourites among songs.

6. The smoking is important for the atmosphere and the description of characters so no, I don't think Tolkien would have skipped it. And I don't think he should. When I read the Hobbit to my daughter I didn't even reflect on the smoking thing. If she takes up smoking later in her life, I don't think Gandalf is to blame.

[Elvengirl]

Originally posted by Valandil
Hah - makes me laugh! You know, when I was younger, I have to admit I used to SKIP all the songs and poems. Now I enjoy those along with the rest of it.

LOL!
Ok I admit it, the first time I read the chapter I skipped the songs too. Then my brother made me go back and read them, but I'm glad he did.

[Valandil]

OK... are all hearts clear on Chapter 1? If not, get a post in quick! If so... who wants to post a summary and discussion questions of Chapter 2? And when could you do it?