Gandalf - a manipulator?

[Beren3000]

So, Olmer, what do you suggest? Would you rather Gandalf did not "manipulate" Bilbo and Frodo? How many would have died then? And besides, isn't Gandalf to be given credit for his serving the common good rather than looking after his friends?

[Telcontar]

All I gotta say is that Gandalf has probably become my favorite character. After reading the chapter section in Unfinished Tales (Of The Quest to Erebor), I knew he was cunning and wise, I just didn't know he was that manipulative! I like how he states that his "chance" meeting with Thorin had saved Middle Earth.

I was surprised after reading Gandalf's suspicion that Sauron wanted to attack Lorien and Rivendell first. If Sauron would've done that, it might've been a whole different ending. But Gandalf pretty much orchestrated the major events and saved Middle Earth! If Sauron wouldn't had to have changed his plans (because Smaug was killed), he would've had more forces in Gondor, and most likely had destroyed Gondor with the help of Smaug.

Another thing that I hadn't really known was that the Mirkwood Elves and the Men of Dale and Dwarves were fighting Sauron's Northern forces. I knew the fight was going on somewhere else, but I didn't know why.

If Bilbo wouldn't have helped the dwarves and taken the ring, the efforts of Aragorn and the West would've been for naught.

Kind of puts the saying, "The time will come when Hobbits will shape the fortunes of all" into perspective.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Beren3000
And besides, isn't Gandalf to be given credit for his serving the common good rather than looking after his friends?

Right!I did not say that all his deeds did not serve the "common goods". Just the same as you can't blame generals for sending soldiers to another coutry to fight (and die) in the name of the World Peace.
Gandalf is brilliant and scary person, and I just don't understand why, after consideration of all facts, many people still percieve
him as a good old grandfather, some kind of stylized Santa, when, in fact, he is nothing like that.
I already discussed his nature in another thread:Olmer's POV on Gandalf.

In re. of azalea guestion:

quote:
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What other priorities does Gandalf have, in your opinion?
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Gandalf was a soldier sent with very direct order, kind like a secret service man , and with an authority to make decisions.
So, in this way he behaves like a soldier: to achieve the aimed task he sends people, who love and trust in him, on sure death without any remorse and wavering , but when time comes to lay down his own life on sacrifision table in the name of the quest, he does it the same way, without hesitation like a true soldier .
Gandalf was , also, a great politician and brilliant manipulator, the grand-master of the ME chess-play, as he used to call the whole ordeal. I sympathize to Sauron and all his military - political schemes, which quite often ask for respect and high regard, but they pale in comparativeness to Gandalf's action. If Sauron's moves are thought over and carefully prepared, Gandalf's moves are unexpected and refined, he gives it all an impromptu, which demands an inspiration, a pleasure of game for the sake of the game.
And we are talking here about the Demiurge of realities. You can’t look at him without awe and admiration. He MAKES things happen!
He is not infallible, nor evil or angel, he just a high spirit in human form sent by the High order, which stays much above other inhabitants of ME and therefore his idea about theirs expendability is quite in tune with Eru himself. "When his tools have done their task he drops them" (LOTR. BOOK VI ,chapt. VIII) - says Saruman about his old pal, who knew him much longer than naive hobbits or desperate to prove himself Dunedain .
As any other spirits he doesn't have human maladies such as sickness or the first stage of Alzheimer disease , on which he quite often trying to put a blame. He remembers everything and everyone, and in this light all his claims about being so dim-witted comes out as deliberate concealment of information in request to achieve the desired result.
In addition with his cunning and manipulative nature he has an ego bigger than mountains, and as I said, his priorities, besides presenting himself as the world peacemaker, was presenting himself as the ONLY savior of ME. Only the wise and far seeing persons as Denetor and Saruman saw through him and acted accordingly. Saruman, at their last meeting at the door of Orthanc, clearly depicted his intentions and asked when it will it be enough to satisfy his enormous ego:”Later! Yes, when you also have the Key of Barad-dur itself, I suppose, and the crowns of seven Kings, and the rods of the five Wizards, and you have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those you wearing now.A modest plan. Hardly one in which my help needed!“.( LOTR, bookIII,ch.X), implying that his ego is the main reason why Radagast was deliberately pushed to his marginal role and the other wizards was conveniently dropped out of the enlisted help..
All in all, he achieved what he was aimed for.

Originally posted by Count Comfect
Well, In LOTR Appendix B it states that Gandalf suspects his [Bilbo's] ring to be the One Ring only as late as 3001 (at the party) so he could hardly have been sure all this time.

...he needed an ally and informant among the group, but all the dwarves were so tight-knit he needed to add an outsider

Wrong, you can see it from the facts taken from the text, which I gave in another thread:

Gandalf was a pretty clever guy and this why he knew right from the beginning of what kind of the ring Bilbo have got.
In conversation with Frodo he is making a clarification between lesser rings and the Rings of Power, the Great Rings: "...many Elven-rings were made...But the GREAT RINGS, the Rings of Power, they were perilous"(LOTR, book I, chapter II)
So, he knew that this IS the Ring of Power.
Did he know how The One Ring look like?
Long time ago, when the White Council was formed and Saruman had not, yet, desired to compete with Gandalf, in their friendly discussion they talked about a definition between The One and the others Rings of Power: "The memory of words at the Council came back to me: words of Saruman..."The Nine, the Seven and the Three," he said, " had each their proper gem. Not so The One. It was round and unadorned, as if it were one of the lesser rings"...(LOTR, bookII, chapter II).

So, did it take 60 years for sharp-witted Gandalf to guess about the ring? Nope!
The Grey Wizard identified the ring at once and in conversation with Frodo he accidentally not once reveals this knowledge .This is his the most undisguised "slippage": "I wondered often how Gollum came by a GREAT RING, as plainly it was - THAT at least was CLEAR FROM THE FIRST"(LOTR, bookI, chapter II)
It was just 20 Great Rings, the Rings of Power, and exactly only one had no stone...You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out.

And ,as sinister as it sounds, Gandalf was not so stupid to make such pointless move as to put a "Snitch" in dwarve's group , it wouldn't serve any purpose.

Originally posted by brownjenkins
...yet doesn't it seem strange that once bilbo had found the ring and, as you have said, gandalf knew it was the one ring... that he would then allow bilbo to venture off with a few dwarves into the dangers that followed after the misty mountains?

We have to remember that from the beginning Gandalf was following the Galadriel's "design" - the preservance of the Ring. Would not it be much better safekeeping if Bilbo would get locked forever in the deepest corner of Elve's uderground dungeons, just like Thorin? Or even better, if Bilbo would get consumed by the Dragon? Considering the history, an addition of 4 Dwarve's kings with theirs Rings of Power to the dragons menu did not affect their digestion or health.
As I said, Bilbo succeded by pure luck IN SPITE of Gandalf's best layed plans

[Radagast The Brown]

Olmer, Tolkien mentions exactly what Gandalf knew in the appendixes - he didn't know, he only suspected. I'm sure that if he knew, he'd send Frodo back then, and that way there was no much problem getting to Mordor.

Gandalf states himself why he chose Biblo - it's written in the UT. There's no need to guess why he brought Bilbo.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Olmer, Tolkien mentions exactly what Gandalf knew in the appendixes - he didn't know, he only suspected. I'm sure that if he knew, he'd send Frodo back then, and that way there was no much problem getting to Mordor.

Gandalf states himself why he chose Biblo - it's written in the UT. There's no need to guess why he brought Bilbo.

Rad, I don't really agree with Olmer's theories myself, but the appendices were written as though from the POV of Hobbits as well. It was a summation of the history as they knew it - so that really doesn't help your case (or hurt Olmer's). Same with the UT account - because it's some hobbits recounting a conversation with Gandalf - as he recalls the events leading to Bilbo's journey.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Valandil
Rad, I don't really agree with Olmer's theories myself, but the appendices were written as though from the POV of Hobbits as well. It was a summation of the history as they knew it - so that really doesn't help your case (or hurt Olmer's). Same with the UT account - because it's some hobbits recounting a conversation with Gandalf - as he recalls the events leading to Bilbo's journey.

First - I don't know what POV is.

Second - I don't tihnk it's the history of hobbits, or as they knew, I'm pretty sure they weren't aware of most of the events in Appendix B.
As for UT - What's wrong with Gandalf, though? I'd believe him. He really had nothing to hide after the Ring was destroyed.

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
First - I don't know what POV is.

POV is point of view. that's all i have to say about this topic.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
First - I don't know what POV is.

Second - I don't tihnk it's the history of hobbits, or as they knew, I'm pretty sure they weren't aware of most of the events in Appendix B.
As for UT - What's wrong with Gandalf, though? I'd believe him. He really had nothing to hide after the Ring was destroyed.

Sorry... POV = Point Of View

For the rest, like I say, I don't agree with Olmer... but the appendix history is as the hobbits got it from Gondor, thanks to their relationship with King Elessar, IIRC (IIRC = If I Recall Correctly! )

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Valandil
Sorry... POV = Point Of View

For the rest, like I say, I don't agree with Olmer... but the appendix history is as the hobbits got it from Gondor, thanks to their relationship with King Elessar, IIRC (IIRC = If I Recall Correctly! )

I've just checked - and I don't think it's the hobbit's point of view - I don't tihnk it's any POV - it's a simple fact. Gandalf probably told the story to Merry, or other hobbits, or even Elrond/his sons/Galadriel. I'm sure it's 100% correct, in that time. In the earlier time, the second Age for example, it is specifically said that the dates might not be precise.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I've just checked - and I don't think it's the hobbit's point of view - I don't tihnk it's any POV - it's a simple fact. Gandalf probably told the story to Merry, or other hobbits, or even Elrond/his sons/Galadriel. I'm sure it's 100% correct, in that time. In the earlier time, the second Age for example, it is specifically said that the dates might not be precise.

Do you yourself understand what you are talking about?
Before throwing yourself into a fight, would not be better to avoid embarrassment by carefully re-reading Prologue of the LOTR, chapter "Note on the Shire Records"?
Valandil told you the Basic knowledge: Tolkien implied that the whole information about Middle-earth and its history, which goes an eons beyond, came to us in 4 volumes of The Red Book of Westmarch, written by hobbits as a diary, and therefore description of events was reported from their point of view.


P.S. I Think it's nothing to discuss about Gandalf's manipulating nature. It 's obvious. Case closed.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Olmer
Do you yourself understand what you are talking about?
Before throwing yourself into a fight, would not be better to avoid embarrassment by carefully re-reading Prologue of the LOTR, chapter "Note on the Shire Records"?
Valandil told you the Basic knowledge: Tolkien implied that the whole information about Middle-earth and its history, which goes an eons beyond, came to us in 4 volumes of The Red Book of Westmarch, written by hobbits as a diary, and therefore description of events was reported from their point of view.


P.S. I Think it's nothing to discuss about Gandalf's manipulating nature. It 's obvious. Case closed.

I've read the prologue when before writing the last post. And read it again yesterday. What it says is that some things are not accurate, mostly in the Second Age, IIRC. Yes, it was written by Merry - but I don't think he invented it. As I said, he probably heard it from Gandalf.

A quote from LotR - 'It was probably at Great Smials that 'The Tale of Years' was put together, with the assistance material collected by Meriadoc. Though the dates given are often conjectural, especially for the Second Age, They deserve attention. It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistant and information from Rivendell, which he visited more than once.'

No, I don't want to be embarrassed, but I don't really see how I am wrong. Except Elrond really didn't help him, nor Galadriel - but his sons, maybe, or other elves that stayed, could. And probably did, as mentioned.

[jonny5]

Well, when you consider the fact that he could have blasted a hole in Bilbo's house and threatened to turn him into a toad with luekemia, manipulating him a little doesn't sound too bad.... :-?

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Olmer
We have to remember that from the beginning Gandalf was following the Galadriel's "design" - the preservance of the Ring. Would not it be much better safekeeping if Bilbo would get locked forever in the deepest corner of Elve's uderground dungeons, just like Thorin? Or even better, if Bilbo would get consumed by the Dragon? Considering the history, an addition of 4 Dwarve's kings with theirs Rings of Power to the dragons menu did not affect their digestion or health.
As I said, Bilbo succeded by pure luck IN SPITE of Gandalf's best layed plans

i don't agree at all with this... if gandalf was the 'supreme manipulator' you paint him as, he wouldn't leave this up to chance

dragons get killed... and sometimes people escape the elven dungeons

if the ring was his sole concern, and all the sudden it was literally 'in his hands' as you might say... he would have done something to assure it would not fall into the wrong hands

and on the 'history written by hobbits' pov... if you like conspiracy theories, one could just as easily say that it was the hobbits who put down the story that subtely painted gandalf as a manipulator in order to put themselves in a better light

can anything truely be considered "case closed" knowing that these stories are only seen from a single pov?

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

and on the 'history written by hobbits' pov... if you like conspiracy theories, one could just as easily say that it was the hobbits who put down the story that subtely painted gandalf as a manipulator in order to put themselves in a better light

can anything truely be considered "case closed" knowing that these stories are only seen from a single pov?

Interesting thought there brownjenkins.

Would anyone care to speculate if JRRT put this much thought into how he wrote about Middle Earth?

Although JRRT has put, IMHO, much care and thought into his writing, I think this would be giving him a bit too much credit. (although it is possible.)

Olmer,

I enjoy reading your theories since your find support for them from the text.
I do not really agree with the conclusions you draw but I find them interesting to read and read the debate that ensues.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

and on the 'history written by hobbits' pov... if you like conspiracy theories, one could just as easily say that it was the hobbits who put down the story that subtely painted gandalf as a manipulator in order to put themselves in a better light?

That right.The story was written by hobbits as they saw it without getting into details. Actually, they were trying to "paint" Gandalf with much brighter colours , just like little schoolchildren will write about their favorite teacher. But if kids see him flawless, it doesn't mean that the teacher has not any flaw.
Therefore, if you scrupulously study the events, then behind hobbit's naive and ecstatic description of Gandalf you can see as taking shape another, quite different portrait of the wizard.

can anything truely be considered "case closed" knowing that these stories are only seen from a single pov?

Many people agreed that Gandalf was a manipulative. Read the whole thread.
mithrand1r

Would anyone care to speculate if JRRT put this much thought into how he wrote about Middle Earth?

I wrote about it in another discussions.I studied JRRT letters and have a reason to believe that the author created an epic with much deeper meaning than just to be the light story for older children. Through many years he was working on the story ,which , as he was saying, was written in my life-blood and ,as he was working through, recording what was already "there", somewhere; not of "inventing", he felt that he is putting on not the whole story, that some parts of the story left untold, and this "something" conveys a sudden sense of endless untold stories: mountains seen far away.
I am trying to bring this "mountains" to much closer vicinity.

Thanks for the words of support .It is a relieve to know that at least somebody is interested in supposedly wild theories

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Olmer

That right.The story was written by hobbits as they saw it without getting into details. Actually, they were trying to "paint" Gandalf with much brighter colours , just like little schoolchildren will write about their favorite teacher. But if kids see him flawless, it doesn't mean that the teacher has not any flaw.

how can you be so sure, maybe these hobbits were not as naive as you seem to believe... any author of a biography tends to paint themselves in a light that always leaves a reason for their actions that does not necessarily point the blame at themselves

Many people agreed that Gandalf was a manipulative. Read the whole thread.

many people believe many things that are not correct

however, if you read my posts, you will see that i also think of him as manipulative... i just see a different set of goals and motivations for that manipulation than you do

i have read this thread... though not in a while ... and your other posts... and i find your observations extremely interesting and insightful... and even your conclusions possible, but not definative

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that if Gandalf had totally manipulated them then he would have left them, but he didn't. He left Bilbo to attend the White Council and drive the Necromancer (AKA Sauron) out of Mirkwood but returned to them in Erebor and left Frodo to seek guidance from Saruman and returned to him and volunteered to guide him to Mordor.

So yes Gandalf did manipulate them but not half as much as people are making out.

[Haradrim]

Some mooters have been mentionin gforesight as this kind of I see a picture and know exactly whats going to happen. I think this foresight existed in tolkiens world but I dont think Gandalf had it. I think Gandalf had a feeling. He knew he was interested in the outside world. He probably also knew he had some took in him. He probably felt a pull towards Bilbo almost a knowing that Bilbo should go and that he would be helpful. I think my views on his foresight are proved in LOTR. If he knew outcomes then why was he so worried about pellenor fields. And why was he worried about the destruction of the ring. If he knew then he would have been fine and relaxed the whole time.

[Radagast The Brown]

When I think of foresight I don't think he knows everything - not at all. You know only few things, glimpse of things that would happen - like the warning of Aragorn to Gandalf not to get into Moria, or Melian saying to Thingol that a man of Beor's men will get into Doriath. They don't know everthing - when, how, etc. - and sometimes are not sure it will surely hapen.

I do think Gandalf had this talent - he explains it as a feeling, I think it's kind of a foresight. (He explains it in UT)

[Beren3000]

Well, if we're back on this topic, I'd like to make a point:
I can surely see why you'd call Gandalf manipulative after his bullying Bilbo into joining the dwarves. But how did he manipulate Frodo? Frodo volunteered (OUT OF HIS OWN FREE WILL) to take the Ring to Mordor. Where does Gandalf's manipulation come in the picture?