Gandalf - a manipulator?

[Olmer]

This thread came from LOTR discussion, but I think it would be quite interesting to hear your opinion on this matter.
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Originally posted by brownjenkins
it's an understandable, and probably even wise manipulation... but it is manipulation none the less... much like gandalf's manipulation to have thorin include bilbo among the party to the loney mountain years earlier... well-intentioned, but slightly underhanded
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Slightly underhanded?!!
He IS a manipulator of extra-class, and he will try every possible way , if using Artanis words, to "make their own wills effective by any means". He manipulated Thorin and dwarves, Bilbo, Frodo, and , unsuccessfully, Aragorn and Denethor.
Just to back up your words on Thorin business...
The dwarves would go quite fine without Bilbo, it's Gandalf, who persuaded them that it's essential to include the Hobbit. About his true reason for it we could talk later, if somebody will be interested. Now I want to make my point how Bilbo was coaxed to join the Dwarves group.
It’s very interesting to follow all Gandalf’s moves, see how he went out of the limbs to make it possible, using trickery and magic, coaxing and intimidation.


Right from the start Gandalf was using a very well known and quite effective psychological trick of persuasion: make it look like the whole idea itself actually came from the person you want to convince:
"....I will give you what you asked for." ---"I beg you pardon, I haven't asked for anything!" ---- "Yes, you have! Twice now!...I give it you"...

Then, not bothering about an immaculate Bilbo's reputation, without his knowledge, Gandalf put the mark on his door, which was labeling Bilbo as a professional burglar, living it up to him to deal with consequences:
"...with the spike of his staff scratched a queer sign on the hobbit's beautiful green front door..."
Then, just the same way in the secret he erased the mark from the door, leaving an ingenious hobbit to wonder :what brought the host of dwarves specifically to his own door, till Gloin told him:"...And I assure you there IS a mark on this door --the usual one in the TRADE(!??): BURGLAR WANTS A GOOD JOB"...
An this is no other than set up intimidation! I did not mention the open influence of Gandalf's dominating abilities:"...when Bilbo tried to open his mouth to ask a question, he turned and frowned at him , and stuck out his bushy eyebrows till Bilbo shut his mouth tight with snap."

Then Bilbo became a subject of a banal hypnotic alteration, "...Bilbo forgot everything else, and was swept away into dark lands under strange moons"... And under this influence"..something Tookish woke up inside him"...
But next day , when his "...Tookishness was wearing off".. Gandalf had to use stronger "modification", which turned Bilbo into zombie-like person without memory or sensible control on his actions:" To the end of his days Bilbo could never remember how he found himself outside"...

[Count Comfect]

The dwarves needed someone else. Gandalf was right on that point. A bunch of dwarves coming up to the Misty Mountain would use no strategy - probably just walk up to the front door and try and fight it out with Smaug and lose, as in the pigheadedness they kept showing about Moria. Or keep fuming forever. With a burrahobbit, they have an outdside view, they have a strategy, they have something to try other than sheer dwarvish fighting, and it ends up working. So it isn't like Gandalf was just manipulating Thorin and co. to his own ends.
And I would agree with what someone said on the LOTR discussion, that part of what is coming over Bilbo is his latent Tookishness (as it says) and not just Gandalf.
And being good at convincing people can include those "banal hypnotic alterations" - I've met people in real life who were convinced to do something and can't remember how or why, without the person doing the convincing being a nefarious underhanded manipulator.

Hi again! Nice to have discussion on the Hobbit board too.

[Willow Oran]

Of course Gandalf is a manipulator. He wouldn't be nearly as interesting a character if he wasn't. Besides that, having a manipulative wizard around is an easy and fun plot device. Without Gandalf, the story would have moved much, much slower, if it moved at all.

[Gulio, Strength of Many]

Gandalf is scary. He made me spill my Cheez-its! But yeah, he is rather manipulative. I'd always thought so, but you took it a step further than I, Olmer. I'd only considered the first four of your points. Nice job!

[Dreran the Green]

He is obviously manipulative, but all his actions are of the best intentions. Had he not been as manipulative as he was, who knows what would have happened during the war of the ring?
I never thought of manipulation being a positive trait until now, but in Gandalf's case I guess it was.

Then Bilbo became a subject of a banal hypnotic alteration, "...Bilbo forgot everything else, and was swept away into dark lands under strange moons"...

~I think you'd have to credit the music of the dwarves with that one, though

[Beren3000]

He is manipulating, yes; but that doesn't make him any less good does it?
He plays "the pieces on the board" as he sees fit because he's an emissary of the Valar, he's given special wisdom. So he can see the bigger picture and appreciate the many consequences of a false move: he DOES have the right to manipulate. It's almost like the Aes Sedai in the Wheel of Time. Everybody sees them as manipulative and, while that is true, they're only doing it for the common good.
After all, look how Bilbo ended: an experienced, man-of-the-world who made fortune and renown along the way. And Frodo ended up sailing for Valinor! How could they have achieved all this if not for Gandalf's "manipulation"?

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Beren3000

After all, look how Bilbo ended: an experienced, man-of-the-world who made fortune and renown along the way. And Frodo ended up sailing for Valinor! How could they have achieved all this if not for Gandalf's "manipulation"?

And HOW exactly he , an experienced, man-of-the-world who made fortune, ended up?
In his homeland, instead of admiration and respect, he got mockery and was tagged as a queer .Nobody cared about his experience gained in life-threatening situations of his long and dangerous trip, in his ”absurd adventures”( LOTR), and nobody gave a damn about his world’s fame. The only fame he got is being called behind his back as ”mad Baggins” and his neighbors can’t wait to get their hands on his fabled riches.
Put yourself in his place and honestly answer to yourself: would you care if you are well known and respected among , say for example, people in Australia, if you are not comfortable and happy at your home and feel alienated from other folk of your town?
No wonder that Bilbo eventually got tired of all this pretense to be nice to everybody, who doesn't give a damn about him, and went to the place where was treated much better, leaving his house being already very old.
If you at such age risked to leave the place ,where you spent most of your life, it means that you had been extremely unhappy there. Sadly , poor Bilbo had to thank Gandalf for manipulating him out of normal hobbit’s life.
But, any way, he considered to be lucky to return back home, because the destiny of others “many quiet lads and lasses“ who has been persuaded by Gandalf “off into the Blue for mad adventures” was not as brilliant and successful.

Frodo was able to sail for Valinor? What is his achievement? To stay , serving a lifetime term without parole in the institution without bars, but nevertheless with impenetrable for an outside world walls.
No, Gandalf didn’t do Bilbo a favor manipulating him (and later Frodo) into the web of his own intrigues and games.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Beren3000
He is manipulating, yes; but that doesn't make him any less good does it?
He plays "the pieces on the board" as he sees fit because he's an emissary of the Valar, he's given special wisdom. So he can see the bigger picture and appreciate the many consequences of a false move: he DOES have the right to manipulate. It's almost like the Aes Sedai in the Wheel of Time. Everybody sees them as manipulative and, while that is true, they're only doing it for the common good.
After all, look how Bilbo ended: an experienced, man-of-the-world who made fortune and renown along the way. And Frodo ended up sailing for Valinor! How could they have achieved all this if not for Gandalf's "manipulation"?

Just a few comments...
I don't think the Valar gave Gandalf, or any of the Maiar, special wisdom. Thje Silmarillion says Gandalf was the wisest of the Maiar.
And, and Aes Sedai were seen as manipulative, as I see it from the first two books I've read - they were more like dangerous. Not that it has anything to do with the topic...

But Olmer... I don't think Gandalf only thought about Bilbo when he sent him to the journey with the dwarves, he thought about getting rid of the dragon.
Without Bilbo, Sauron was most likely again with the Ring, and ruling Middle Earth. The future of Middle Earth is more important than Bilbo's personal life, in my opinion.

And, I think that going to Valinor is much better than living in the Shire - and it was Frodo's choice, he could if he wanted to stay in the Shire.

[Beren3000]

Olmer, as to Bilbo's good reputation at home, I stand corrected

However, like RTB said, put yourself in Gandalf's position. You can see the bigger picture (and can probably foresee some of the future). You know that Bilbo's part is crucial in the expedition against Smaug. Would you hesitate for a moment to coax Bilbo into it by any means necessary. And besides, remember that Bilbo had a Tookish side to him. He probably would've gone adventuring on his own and not achieved so much fame and would've ended up infamous at home, too. Now Gandalf's adventure at least gave Bilbo the chance to be able to escape to Rivendell as you put it...and if it helps common good along the way, who's to blame Gandalf?

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Beren3000
...put yourself in Gandalf's position. You can see the bigger picture (and can probably foresee some of the future). You know that Bilbo's part is crucial in the expedition against Smaug.

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I don't think Gandalf only thought about Bilbo when he sent him to the journey with the dwarves, he thought about getting rid of the dragon.

Right and wrong.
Gandalf did not think about Bilbo,he saw the bigger picture, that's right, but he did not think about getting rid of the dragon, either.
He had another agenda.
Let just look at this closely.
All of this began when Gandalf and Thorin unexpectedly met in the Prancing Pony . Gandalf let Thorin know that he “was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North” because “Sauron was plotting war and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell” ( “LOTR”, Appendix A “Durin’s Folk”) , and he was having high hopes that specifically the dwarves will block passes through mountains, but Smaug was in the way. So Gandalf and Òhorin formed a union and organized an expedition to the Lonely Mountain. The mutual purpose - destruction of a dragon.
And now, my friends, explain to me why the hell there has been a need for a hobbit? Why did the old, kind Gandalf stick in a combat group of 13 assailants such an obvious amateur. He could not find a real burglar? The dwarves would go quite fine without Bilbo, it's Gandalf, who persuade them that it's essential to include the Hobbit.
What so special about hobbits? Because hobbits are "quick on hearing and sharp-eyed" and have "a close friendship with the earth" ,they are inquisitive and not afraid to inspect any hole in the ground.
Then what is the purpose to " stitch" a hobbit to the group which will take a long and dangerous journey over woods and mountains?
The answer is obvious : Gandalf wasn’t giving a damn about the passes and the dragon, or the Dwarves need, not to mention the Hobbit. And Sauron was not so stupid to waste his army on the long march through the Northern passes just to get hold on Imladris- "a little house in a prairie", he had more concrete matter-Lothlorien and Gondor.
Gandalf needed the reason to send the group on the long and dangerous journey through the places which he couldn’t go and conveniently avoided himself .He was, simply, looking for... The Ring! But contrary to Saruman's researches through the lore of old, he went from theory to actions.
The whole dwarves group, persuaded by him on senseless task to get theirs reaches by stealing it from the dragon, was needed for protection of Bilbo - the bumbling, but curious fool.
A professional burglar will not go where it is not necessary, he would not be carried on somebody’s back for half-of-the-way, he will operate competently and will survive... but he will not find the Ring. The hobbit, who all his life stayed in a hole, will be better than anyone else susceptible to magical, hypnotical or any other influence for “modification” on search. The chance is small. This fool will pry into each hole, will create a heap of problems and for certain will ruin the group, but WHAT IF!!!… Certainly, probability of a prize in such lottery is insignificantly small... But the player is very determined and persuasive.
Bilbo is not the only one he picked out, he have tried checking out many other hobbits before.
I share Bilbo's admiration:” Dear me! Not the Gandalf who was responsible for so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures!" The search groups were being sent by old , kind Gandalf on the REGULAR BASIS!
And, seems , their destiny was not as successful as Bilbo's...

Without Bilbo, Sauron was most likely again with the Ring, and ruling Middle Earth. The future of Middle Earth is more important than Bilbo's personal life, in my opinion.

Without Bilbo help the ring would stay underground, probably, for another few thousands years, zealously guarded by Gollum.The future of Middle-earth wouldn't be that much different as it was before.

And, I think that going to Valinor is much better than living in the Shire - and it was Frodo's choice, he could if he wanted to stay in the Shire.

Frodo has been left without choice - from a happy , joyful hobbit he became a loner with mortal wound. Even if he would like to stay in the Shire, which he loved with all his heart, he wouldn't be able to. His life was ruined.

[Radagast The Brown]

Gandalf didn't know Bilbo was going to find the Ring. He didn't know it was the One Ring when Bilbo told him of it. Also, Gandalf thought, because of Saruman, that the Ring is in the sea. Therefore, he didn't send Bilbo to the journey because of this reason... I think he foresaw that Bilbo will have a part in the adventure. He says in UT that He was somehow drawn (perhaps not best word choosing?) to Bilbo. (Because he heard of the tales og the world outside the Shire and Gandalf saw his enthusiasm)
I don't think the journey would have been that succeesful without Bilbo. Without Bilbo, Smaug would still be in the cave, and the Dwarves would probably get killed by him.

Gandalf say in Unfinished Tales that he thought Suaron was first going to attack Lorien and Rivendell, and that now he's sure of it.

[Beren3000]

Since RTB already refuted the most obvious point: Gandalf not knowing that the Ring was in Middle-Earth, I'd like to discuss two other points:

Originally posted by Olmer


The hobbit, who all his life stayed in a hole, will be better than anyone else susceptible to magical, hypnotical or any other influence for “modification” on search.

Frodo has been left without choice - from a happy , joyful hobbit he became a loner with mortal wound. Even if he would like to stay in the Shire, which he loved with all his heart, he wouldn't be able to. His life was ruined.

First, you say Bilbo was susceptible to magic, hypnosis and "modification" as you put it so that he'd be more likely to stumble on the Ring. Provided that Gandalf knew of the Ring already, doesn't this susceptibility make Bilbo's chance of securing the Ring after finding it even less? I mean, he'd probably fall under its charm and would end up much like Gollum.

Second, Frodo's life was not ruined. He's going (at the risk of sounding cliché) to a better place. I don't know whether you believe in heaven, Olmer but I do. Imagine a place like heaven. An ideal place. You will be leaving your homeland and your friends behind, that's right. But you're going to a place of eternal bliss and happiness. If anything, I'd say that it's harder for those who stay on the mortal end (earth). Moreover, Frodo said to Sam that in order for something to be saved, somebody must give it up for the sake of others. So he wasn't exactly miserable: he sacrificed for the land he loved so much and the people he knew all of his life. He certainly sounds content to me.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Gandalf didn't know Bilbo was going to find the Ring.

He also did not know if any other " lads and lasses", which he has been sending in some other directions "for mad adventure" (means for the search of the Ring) and which disappeared without trace, would find the Ring. It was a chancy gamble, but the more hobbits was sent - the better chance to stumble on some information about the Ring. Bilbo, among all others, happened to be his winning ticket .

He didn't know it was the One Ring when Bilbo told him of it. Also, Gandalf thought, because of Saruman, that the Ring is in the sea.

He knew right away what kind of ring Bilbo has got, but prefered Bilbo to handle it."I wondered often how Gollum came by a GREAT RING, as plainly it was - THAT at least was CLEAR FROM THE FIRST."(LOTR, bookI,chapter II)

He says in UT that He was somehow drawn (perhaps not best word choosing?) to Bilbo.

He was "drawn" to Bilbo because a single hobbit , without any strings attached, healthy and mature enough was a perfect candidate for a dangerous and long journey.

I don't think the journey would have been that succeesful without Bilbo.

Agree. But his success was due to his pure luck, and not because he has had some special abilities.

Gandalf say in Unfinished Tales that he thought Suaron was first going to attack Lorien and Rivendell, and that now he's sure of it.

It's Gandalf's hearsay. Doesn't mean it true. He also labeled Bilbo as criminal offender, the thief, which was an anabashed lie, of course.

Originally posted by Beren 3000
Provided that Gandalf knew of the Ring already, doesn't this susceptibility make Bilbo's chance of securing the Ring after finding it even less? I mean, he'd probably fall under its charm and would end up much like Gollum.

He fell under its charm, all right, and , if given another 500 years, he would be ending up much like Gollum .

Second, Frodo's life was not ruined. He's going to a better place. I don't know whether you believe in heaven, Olmer but I do. Imagine a place like heaven. An ideal place. You will be leaving your homeland and your friends behind, that's right. But you're going to a place of eternal bliss and happiness. . So he wasn't exactly miserable: he sacrificed for the land he loved so much and the people he knew all of his life.

I do believe in a better place. However, I don't believe that by sacrifiing yourself will necessary brings you an eternal bliss and happiness.
Actually, I think is morally wrong to sacrifice yourself for people and your country because you are expecting to get awarded. The real heros are never looking for revards for theirs deeds, they do it because they know that they can't just turn around, even knowing that theirs life, probably, would be miserable aftewards.
Frodo was never counted on a trip to Valinor, but nevertheless, when he got an offer, he had no choice - he was dying. Do you know how old he was at that time? Just 53! In the primetime of hobbits life! He could have a family, he could enjoy just quiet living, travelling, a million things which will make you feel happy and blissful on the Earth.... And you are telling me that his life was not ruined?!

[Count Comfect]

Olmer, two things-

One, you didn't answer that Gandalf believed the Ring to be in the Sea, as Saruman had told him.

Two, why should we believe your theory over Gandalf's "hearsay"? If we don't believe one thing that is in the books, why believe another over it? And why believe a theory built on some of the text over another part of the text?

Just wondering.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Count Comfect
One, you didn't answer that Gandalf believed the Ring to be in the Sea, as Saruman had told him.

He DID NOT believed Saruman's theory. He said himself that he had a doubts. And since the Ring had been lost in the river it was a posibility that it could be picked up by animal or bird and got stashed in some hole in the ground of the Misty Mountains ( not all stones in the rives are getting carried to the sea).
Just as Sauman began to search the Gladden fields in hope that the Ring might reveal itself, seeking its master"(LOTP.Appendix B), Gandalf began to send a seach groups to the Misty Mountains having the same hopes.

Two, why should we believe your theory over Gandalf's "hearsay"? If we don't believe one thing that is in the books, why believe another over it? And why believe a theory built on some of the text over another part of the text?

Because it's BUILT ON THE TEXT.
If you disagre, argument my theory with another part of the text in which you believe.
Besides, I'm asking NOBODY to believe in the theory I'm offering here. I just think that it is very intriguing and demanding a good knowledge of Tolkien's work, and since it's so controversial, it offers a wide subject to dispute.
If everybody's believes would be the same it would be nothing to discuss, period.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Olmer
And now, my friends, explain to me why the hell there has been a need for a hobbit? Why did the old, kind Gandalf stick in a combat group of 13 assailants such an obvious amateur. He could not find a real burglar? The dwarves would go quite fine without Bilbo, it's Gandalf, who persuade them that it's essential to include the Hobbit.

What so special about hobbits? Because hobbits are "quick on hearing and sharp-eyed" and have "a close friendship with the earth" ,they are inquisitive and not afraid to inspect any hole in the ground.

Then what is the purpose to "stitch" a hobbit to the group which will take a long and dangerous journey over woods and mountains?

there is another possible answer... we see it other texts, the ability of the ainur to recall in part the history of the world that eru laid out before them at its creation... i've always seen this as the source of the 'foresight' you often see among the powerful throughout history

it may very well be that gandalf had a feeling about bilbo... much as he did about frodo later, that his participation was essential to the success of the mission (which it was)

Without Bilbo help the ring would stay underground, probably, for another few thousands years, zealously guarded by Gollum.The future of Middle-earth wouldn't be that much different as it was before.

if i've read your theories right elsewhere, you've stated that gandalf was somewhat in collusion with the elves to keep the ring hidden as long as possible... so that the three rings would continue to function... and gandalf only chose the course of destruction when there was no alternative left

if this were the case... wouldn't it make more sense to leave it hidden as it was in the first place than to try so hard to find it?

[Olmer]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
it may very well be that gandalf had a feeling about bilbo... much as he did about frodo later, that his participation was essential to the success of the mission (which it was)]

If he can foresee that Bilbo's presence was essential to the mission (burglarising) success, than he can also forsee the more important detail: Bilbo's finding the Ring and due use of which Bilbo managed to achieve an impossible task.
Which is just the same - Bilbo was sent to look for the Ring.

wouldn't it make more sense to leave it hidden as it was in the first place than to try so hard to find it?

It would make more sense to KNOW where it hidden. Don'd forget that many others had been looking for it.
If Bilbo wouldn't take the Ring from Gollum, Gandalf would simply set a watch on Gollum, as he did aftewards, making sure to know his and the Ring's whereabout all the time.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Olmer
If he can foresee that Bilbo's presence was essential to the mission (burglarising) success, than he can also forsee the more important detail: Bilbo's finding the Ring and due use of which Bilbo managed to achieve an impossible task.
Which is just the same - Bilbo was sent to look for the Ring.

i don't think gandalf's foresight... or that of any ainu was necessarily that complete or precise... it's mentioned in the silmarillion that:

Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.

so gandalf's foresight may have involved the ring... or it may have just involved the defeat of smaug... which he also saw as a positive goal, as it would lead to a strengthening of the forces that must one day stand against sauron... or it may have been both... either way, i think the idea that it was just about the ring and nothing else is far from certain

It would make more sense to KNOW where it hidden. Don'd forget that many others had been looking for it.
If Bilbo wouldn't take the Ring from Gollum, Gandalf would simply set a watch on Gollum, as he did aftewards, making sure to know his and the Ring's whereabout all the time.

very true... yet doesn't it seem strange that once bilbo had found the ring and, as you have said, gandalf knew it was the one ring... that he would then allow bilbo to venture off with a few dwarves into the dangers that followed after the misty mountains? if it was all about the ring, why not come up with some excuse to send bilbo home, or at least keep him by his side?

[Count Comfect]

Well, first off, In LOTR Appendix B (from whcih all these quotes come) it states that Gandalf suspects his [Bilbo's] ring to be the One Ring only as late as 3001 (at the party) so he could hardly have been sure all this time. In addition, Saruman searched Gladden Fields for the Ring after he discovers that Sauron's servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields but says nothing to the Council so there is no reason for this to affect Gandalf's search or nonsearch for the Ring.

I also haven't seen anything that indicates Gandalf doubted Saruman's word about the fate of the Ring until After Bilbo found his Ring.

And I do see one (slightly sinister, if you want to look at it that way) reason Gandalf would attach a hobbit to the party, if (as I think) he wasn't looking for the Ring: he knew he would be leaving the party at times, and he needed an ally and informant among the group, but all the dwarves were so tight-knit he needed to add an outsider, and preferably one of similar height (so he could do similar things). So he picked a hobbit.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Olmer He was "drawn" to Bilbo because a single hobbit , without any strings attached, healthy and mature enough was a perfect candidate for a dangerous and long journey.

No - actually, it is said why he was drawn to Bilbo: because other hobbits named him 'weird' and because he talked with dwarves and wanted to know about the world outside of he Shire.

Agree. But his success was due to his pure luck, and not because he has had some special abilities.

Or because of Eru's help.

It's Gandalf's hearsay. Doesn't mean it true. He also labeled Bilbo as criminal offender, the thief, which was an anabashed lie, of course.

Why do you think so? I believe Gandalf had nothing to hide after the Ring was destroyed when he said that. [/QUOTE]