Christian themes in Harry Potter?

[Nurvingiel]

Minielin's post in HP vs. LOTR made me wonder... are there any Christian themes in Harry Potter?

Originally Posted by Minielin

Well, setting aside the deeper themes of good vs. evil and Christian references, which don't ever happen in any other books, I'm sure.

Personally, the Harry Potter books have a distincly secular feel to me.

What do you guys think? Do you have any comments Minielin?

relevant article and website. Personally I think he's reading into it a liiiittle too much in this article.



EDIT: I did do a search, but I don't think the other threads that touch on this subjects are about this particular thought.

[Mercutio]

well there are all the references to alchemy (many of which overlap/= some Christian stuff such as redemption, purification, etc. (obiviously more specific than this short post)...let me dig up an article)

EDIT ~

what do ya know, it's by the same guy as those other articles (I read it in a Christian journal we get that is consistently...hmm...good? um--they don't make stuff up...some other decent adjectives )

The Alchemist’s Tale Harry Potter & the Alchemical Tradition in English Literature

this is the key (but the whole article really should be read)

Certainly, the similarity of this language to the Christian spiritual path is remarkable—and understandably so, because the symbols of the completion of the alchemical work are also traditional ciphers for Christ, the God/Man, in whose sinless two natures Christians are called to perfection in his Mystical Body, the Church.

It gave a huge load of evidence and all sorts of stuff explaining how ^

[inked]

Nurv,

to quote an infamous British git, " Ohhhh, yyeeeaaaahhhh! Baby!"

[Minielin]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Do you have any comments Minielin?

I think the Harry Potter books were written in a secular way. However, two points: first of all, JKR (like most authors) has good guys that behave in good ways which reflect the teachings of Christianity. Basic Christian themes occur in almost any book with a distinct hero of the traditional variety. They're not hard to find, although there is a definite distinction betwenn those and direct, pointedly Biblical references such as there are in The Chronicles of Narnia. Then secondly, think about the allegorical connection many people made between LotR and WWII, despite the fact that Tolkien, I believe, stated plainly that he did not write LotR in any way based on the events of WWII. Simply put, I think that while JKR did not deliberately write in Christian themes, they are present and identifiable (though I agree, some of that material is a bit of a stretch ).

[Wayfarer]

Hmm.

I wonder if Hogwarts has an annex that teaches Sigaldry?

[Minielin]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

I wonder if Hogwarts has an annex that teaches Sigaldry?

Hehe. In a way, of course, they do.

[Nurvingiel]

Erm... what's Sigaldry?

Anyway, I guess what it comes down to, is people will find what they are looking for in a book, whether it's devil worship or Christian themes.

I agree with you Mini, that there are not deeper themes than cultural ones that occur in many books. (Having good guys etc. isn't exactly unique to Christianity anyway. )

Originally Posted by inked

Nurv,

to quote an infamous British git, " Ohhhh, yyeeeaaaahhhh! Baby!"

Aaaaaa!!! *flees*

[inked]

Nurv,
Have you taken literary courses in college? Of course you have! Did you immediately see and understand everything in any book assigned in the course(s)? Did you ever go the library and see ALL the interpretive works on any given book so you could cobble together a paper on the meaning of a book?
Of course you did! I bet you even know of the industry devoted to those types of things, "Cliff's Notes".

If you think that no themes other than cultural ones (which explains much of the dearth of literature in this current time) are explicit in books, you may need to take remedial Literature courses . You know better !

Minielin,
"I think the Harry Potter books were written in a secular way. However, two points: first of all, JKR (like most authors) has good guys that behave in good ways which reflect the teachings of Christianity. Basic Christian themes occur in almost any book with a distinct hero of the traditional variety. They're not hard to find, although there is a definite distinction betwenn those and direct, pointedly Biblical references such as there are in The Chronicles of Narnia. Then secondly, think about the allegorical connection many people made between LotR and WWII, despite the fact that Tolkien, I believe, stated plainly that he did not write LotR in any way based on the events of WWII. Simply put, I think that while JKR did not deliberately write in Christian themes, they are present and identifiable (though I agree, some of that material is a bit of a stretch )."

Of course JKR stands in the British tradition of authorship and that means that for most of the past 1500 years expressed values have been Christian values. But the traditional heroes' good has been of similar sort since Socrates famous discussion of how persons act given a ring that confers invisibility and WHY they do so. There are therfore many parallels with philosophically good heroes. As Aragorn observed, good has not changed (though that point is often debated in these fora! ). One can force interpretations into non-existent allegories, which was what JRRT was protesting, but all applicability is not allegory, as JRRT INSISTED.

Simply put, I think the evidence that JKR did deliberately write in Christian themes is overwhelming. But one must know what the evidence is and then look for usage and then weigh the total. And, as a Tolkien fan, you are aware of the vast interpretive mileiu which can arise from any source (as say, Marxist or Buddhist evaluations) and which has delineable applicability, which is of vastly differing qualities.

If you wish to pursue this more in depth, I suggest you read either of the texts John Granger has written. They are much more than the website can suggest, and he is himself a classicist well-prepared to assess the usage of JKR of the entire Western philosophical corpus and Christianity. Additionally, there exists a philosophy series addressing this corpus and interactions which you might find interesting - I referenced it to Beren3000 in the currrently reading thread and a review from him should be possible too.

I would enjoy discussing this book by book in the HP series if any are interested.

Now, to assert the applicability and usage of Christian themes is not to deny the presence of others. Literature is not limited to either/or but is mostly both/and . And, since Christianity is a vast, interlocking rational system of understanding ourselves, the universe, and Everything, in addition to God-human relations, it makes sense that there are multiple points of contact with even divergent interpretations.

I think that Granger's assertion that JKR is writing as an Inkling (out of time) is eminently defensible - particularly with the comparison of HP with TCoN and LOTR. Shall we have a go?

[Minielin]

Originally Posted by inked

I would enjoy discussing this book by book in the HP series if any are interested.

Ooh, let's do... I'm very interested to hear your comments.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Erm... what's Sigaldry?

I believe it means "enchantment".

[Mercutio]

A really really helpful book to understanding literature is "How to Read Literature Like a Professor." Highly highly reccommended. It's fun to read too. After all the chapters on things like ...Is that a Greek Myth I spy? or Christ Figures 101, they have a test case. You read a short story and pick out/identify the stuff talked about in the book. I have yet to try my hand at that!

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

Nurv,
Have you taken literary courses in college? Of course you have! Did you immediately see and understand everything in any book assigned in the course(s)? Did you ever go the library and see ALL the interpretive works on any given book so you could cobble together a paper on the meaning of a book?
Of course you did! I bet you even know of the industry devoted to those types of things, "Cliff's Notes".

If you think that no themes other than cultural ones (which explains much of the dearth of literature in this current time) are explicit in books, you may need to take remedial Literature courses . You know better !

I meant there are no themes other than cultural ones in Harry Potter.

As a matter of fact, my science degree, heavy on the science, had room for only one English course, so I chose an Essay Writing course. So as a matter of fact, I have not taken literary courses at a college level. It's not like I don't read though. There are Christian themes in, say, "The Chronicles of Narnia" or "Lord of the Flies", but not "Harry Potter".

And I also never used Cliff Notes (but I know what it is) so .

[inked]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I meant there are no themes other than cultural ones in Harry Potter.

As a matter of fact, my science degree, heavy on the science, had room for only one English course, so I chose an Essay Writing course. So as a matter of fact, I have not taken literary courses at a college level. It's not like I don't read though. There are Christian themes in, say, "The Chronicles of Narnia" or "Lord of the Flies", but not "Harry Potter".

And I also never used Cliff Notes (but I know what it is) so .

O, Nurvingiel, Nurvingiel,
Your first sentence reveals a spell
Of enchantment deep and tall and wide
To be breached, of bindings cultural!

You must haste to make room
For literature analysis
Lest you become
All trunk and no photosynthesis!

Surely, Nurv, you have electives available in non-science requirements. Use them!!! I had a heavy science load myself (BS in Microbiology, MS in Microbiology, MD), but made time for the literary and musical studies that complement the person. Don't waste this opportunity by merely concentrating on the forestry, check out the leaves (of the Greats)! Or do wish to see only the trunks and fallen leaves and bracken of the great forest of life



Minielin and Nurv,

Describe if you wish the cultural significance of Fawks. I shall be happy to share the little I know of his person, character, symbolism, and significance, but you go first.

That's just for funzies, of course. I propose that we go book by book as published to be orderly and complete in our discussions. I have been extremely busy of late but I will try to post my evaluation of HP&TPS no later than this weekend.

This can be great fun!

[Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Minielin

I believe it means "enchantment".

Sigaldry was a tradition of runic magic which drew heavily from Christian theology.

Come to think of it, there have been quite a few magical traditions which attempted to incorporate christianity.

[Nurvingiel]

And Christianity has also incorportated magical (or pagan at least) traditions.

Inked, there isn't a lot of room for non-forestry courses. But I try to take social sciences when I have electives. (Anthro 101, Econ 102 (Econ 101 was required), and English 112 (the essay class)).

Don't worry, I won't be all trunk. I hope to take another degree in English later. Plenty of literary courses will happen there!

Anyway, I don't think that there are Christian themes in every book. It is completely possible to write a secular book, or one with themes from another religion.

I think you'd have a very hard time finding Christian themes in my favourite book of all time - Musashi, by Eiji Yoshikawa. For example.

But like I said somewhere, people can find what they want to find in a great book.

[Wayfarer]

Try not to confuse Christianity with Catholocism.

[inked]

Ahh, Nurv, you might be too Entish you know. Growing more and more tree-ish rather than entish, though. I seem to recall some concern on the insult thread about the sap not rising high enough - by Lizra, too, - a second opinion as it were .

Which takes more faith, Nurv, to deny the last 2000 years of Western Civilization and the spread and triumph of Christian teachings to a worldwide religion, and to claim it has no effect on literature, or to insist that literature is purely cultural without acknowledging the Christian influence in that Western civilization (as secular as it has become)? Hmmmm, that's a difficult choice because there is no choice. To deny Western culture the Christian is to deny western civilization. That's why even with an end run into today's anemic culture you cannot avoid the Christian.

It is true that there are other than Christian influences on culture, but to ignore that is to speak of mosquitos in a room full of flying, pink elephants.
To wit: the Tolkien corpus, the Lewis corpus, the Bronte's, and all the others too numerous to mention (Shakespeare, Chaucer, et cetera) and, let us not forget, those to whom reaction to Christianity gave their lives meaning and a subject to write upon, like Shaw, Marx, Mao, etc.

The resolute refusal to see the obvious does not disappear the obvious, but it does make one question the viewer!

Wayfarer is correct too in that one must not confuse the local and large effects of groups of Christian believers which can and should be distinguished by one overarching term - unless one is referring to the genuinely ecumenical Christian beliefs in contradistinction to identifiable subgroupings, I.e., pre-Great Schism, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Lutheran, Protestant, Anglican, Evangelical, Pentecostal, etc.

But *smiles broadly *, I assure you that this much and more is in HP and not merely culturally in your anemic sense, either! See my challenge above , heh-heh-heh!

[Nurvingiel]

Christianity has effected Western culture, of course! But Harry Potter is a secular book because AFAIK, JK Rowling wrote it as such. Any Christian themes found are because of Christianity's influence on Western culture, not because she inserted specific symbolism. (If she did put Christian symbolism in on purpose, then I would agree with you.)

I don't have any problem at all with authors who do have Christian themes (Chaucer, Golding, CS Lewis etc.) but I also do not see Christian themes where none meaningfully exist.

[inked]

Nurv,
Monty Python, The Lumberjack Song, do you have it memorized? Especially the tree names in the spoken part? Has nothing to do with the topic, I just was curious!

I will hold to my contention that there is more to HP than merely cultural influences. I will attempt to establish that clearly enough that the leaves will not obscure the trunks! But, it may be necessary to classify a few trunks and leaves to make the connections clear!

[Minielin]

Originally Posted by inked

Minielin and Nurv,

Describe if you wish the cultural significance of Fawks. I shall be happy to share the little I know of his person, character, symbolism, and significance, but you go first.

Fawkes can absolutely in my opinion be considered a Christ symbol. There is evidence that points to this interpretation of his character that essentially includes almost every mention of him in the books. As I've said, there is no doubt that Christian themes may be drawn from Harry Potter; my question lies rather in whether JRK specifically intended to write them as such.

[Nurvingiel]

I actually don't have it memorized! *runs off to listen to "Monty Python: The Final Rip-off, disc 1". I believe spruce and pine are mentioned though... in the tall forests of British Columbia...

erm... I just realized you are as bad a rabbit-trail follower as Rian and I!

Anyway I look forward to your pointing out Christian themes (if they are, in fact, there). I suspect that some might be quite a stretch. If something is really stretched, I think it's safe to say that it's a cultural reference. How stretched something has to be to be a cultural reference is not immediately obvious, but I'm sure we'll work it out eventually. (Unlike a certain other thread in the GM forum. )