Why have Merry and Pippin in the Fellowship?

[Star]

I think, If Merry hadn't been there, Eowyn wouldn't have defeated the witchking of Angmar, and Pip, believe it or not, actually helped in the mines of moria. Think about it, if gandalf hadn't fell, He wouldn't have become Gandalf the white, and Pip also signaled Rohan by lighting the beacons when denethor refused. And I have to agree that because of them the ents went to war against Isengard, and Rohan survived. What would have happened if there was no Gandalf the White? Gandalf the gray lost against Saruman the first time, but as Gandalf the White, he beat him the second time in Rohan.

[Curubethion]

Foresight is definitely my pick for the reason. Foresight, and providence. Merry and Pippin were meant to be in the Fellowship, as was seen by later events.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Curubethion

Foresight is definitely my pick for the reason. Foresight, and providence. Merry and Pippin were meant to be in the Fellowship, as was seen by later events.

Foresight, all right... but remember they don´t come like TV - shows, whenever you want. I think some of the arguments are based too much on the way of telling the story and what happened, not what could have happened after the Council of Elrond. And as for Gandalf being an inhumane robot, hardly. Did´nt Tolkien write somewhere that as Olorin, he was taught compassion by one of the Valar? And, as for the common good of the Ainur, did they ever force the Elves to do anything? No, they allowed some to stay in Middle-Earth, though they knew it wouldn´t be as good as if they had come to Valinor. They allowed Fëanor to leave the Undying lands, yet they knew that it would bring much sorrow.
Also, it would have been easier and swifter if the Valar had stormed Barad-Dùr, molten the Ring, and with justice swooped around telling everyone it was them who bothered to come down to ME, and thus earning the worship of all the Free Peoples. It would have been better publicity for them, but no, they agreed the folks to do it themselves. And too much worship results to too many prayers.... The Free Peoples had to "grow up."

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

Foresight, all right... I think some of the arguments are based too much on the way of telling the story and what happened, not what could have happened after the Council of Elrond.

That's right. It had happened whatever happened IN SPITE of the best layed out plans of Gandalf and Elrond.
Gandalf can foresee nothing, his argument on an inclusion of Merry and Pippin was a tight friendship between hobbits. In it he was putting his hopes for success(I already said about the real reason).
Nevertheless in whole escapades of the hobbits their friendship played a little part in Frodo's quest, since they became separated and each went on his own way. If it's not for Gandalf's return (which he did not forsee either) Pippin would end as a helpless catatonic, and Merry would be Theoden's chore boy at best.

Did´nt Tolkien write somewhere that as Olorin, he was taught compassion by one of the Valar?

Could you provide a quote where it says about Valar's compassion towards dwellers of Middle Earth? As far as it known, they were too busy to make their own life comfortable .

And, as for the common good of the Ainur, did they ever force the Elves to do anything? No, they allowed some to stay in Middle-Earth, though they knew it wouldn´t be as good as if they had come to Valinor. They allowed Fëanor to leave the Undying lands, yet they knew that it would bring much sorrow.

It was their birthright to stay in Arda, for goodness sake!They need not to BE ALLOWED to stay. Eru created Arda for Eruhini, not for Valar.
And who said that in Valinor it would be better than in Middle Earth? Valar themselves? Why they have to drag elves out of their home? Because they did not have enough of servants over there?
Seems many of Moriquendi have asked the same question and refused the invitation to the gilded cage.

Also, it would have been easier and swifter if the Valar had stormed Barad-Dùr, molten the Ring, and with justice swooped around telling everyone it was them who bothered to come down to ME, and thus earning the worship of all the Free Peoples. It would have been better publicity for them,

Oh, they have had enough of publicity, all right. Every time when they are venturing to help people it's ending up in such major upheaval, that it would be remembered for many thousands years.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Star

... and Pip also signaled Rohan by lighting the beacons when denethor refused...

Sorry... not in the books!

[Star]

okay someone said that pip didn't light the beacons of gondor in the books, but its a movie wise point.

[hectorberlioz]

yes, but Hobbits had an innocence that dwarves didnt, which would ultimately save them from becoming evil.
And you forget, Frodo was already becomning susceptible to the "dark side" from the beginning whne he recieved the ring. Now, I dont want to pick on Gimli or anything, but Dwarves are naturally very greedy people. And I'm sure Legolas picked up a bit of greediness from his father .

[Nurvingiel]

I think this thread needs a bump. This post in "Were the elves allies to Gondor" thread made me think of Merry and Pippin's importance in the Fellowship.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It was a proposal. He proposed to fill the reamining two positions of the the Fellowship (Merry and Pippins) to be filled by members of his own household.

Olmer responds:

Originally Posted by Olmer

Oh, yes, sorry, he CONSIDER this , but seems to me did not insist on it too much.
"It's a dangerous road. The evil Nine Riders will be agaist you. You will face a lot of perils.You can't replace the skillfull in fights, strong and wise Elves which will protect Frodo from the harm and made his quest successful. I forsee that the two bumbling hobbits will seriously undermine the whole idea of the quest's speed and secrecy... "
"But we want to go!"..
"O'key!"

Don't forget that Elrond was ultimately convinced to include Merry and Pippin because of their loyalty and friendship to Frodo. He felt that this would be stronger than including two elf-lords from his household, which is why I believe he said (paraphrase) "if I had a host of Elf-lords it would avail nothing." (I think that was Elrond. )
EDIT: Merry and Pippin weren't bumbling. Ignore the movies! Cast the questionably shaped carrots from your mind!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Elrond would have insisted on it had it been anyone other than Gandalf insisting against him. He knew Gandalf was a greater spirit than he an knew that if Gandalf saidd that that would be best, it would be best.

[Nurvingiel]

I think rather than being daunted by Gandalf, Elrond saw the wisdom in his words. (Unless that's what you meant. )

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah that is.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Merry and Pippin weren't bumbling.
Cast the questionably shaped carrots from your mind!

Here is my carrot.
Their blundering cost the life of two major personalities in the Fellowship: Gandalf and Boromir.
All their loyalty would not be counted if they wouldn't have other important qualities , such as being the Hobbits , and therefore being small and quick they have a better chance to penetrate Mordor unseen, then their unusually long resistance to the ring, and then comes their loyalty to Frodo, in this case they will be willing to take Frodo's burden if he woun't be able to continue.
Simply , it was just very calculated decision.

[inked]

Olmer,

If it was a calculated decision, on your evidence it was a bad calculation.

Hobbits in general represent the innocent enjoyment of goodness which they take for granted. Part of the reason for the inclusion of them in the FOTR is this quality. It did grant them a certain immunity to temptation by the Ring as witnessed by Frodo's long resistance and Sam's temptation to be SuperGardener! But behind the naivete is a solid appreciation for, understanding of, and committment to the world of Middle Earth as it was. This gave them qualities and abilities other than those of the wiser, older, and fairer races. I think they are foils to the Haradrim and other men seduced by Sauron and we are meant to hold this comparison in mind.

It was precisely this quality of commoner appreciation of the world that Tolkein saw in WWI during his service and which so impressed him. The inclusion of the Hobbits is an homage to the English workingman who likes his ale and pub and fun, but when put to it, will stick it out. I think the Letters has reference to this. Tolkein says that when the rubber meets the road people who understand macadam and tires are the people who really count!

Gandalf's recommendation for trusting to friendship is an ellipsis for this concept, IMHO. The calculation was that despite their adolescence in regard to the way the world was, their simplicity would confound the wise and Sauron. In this regard only was it calculated. The sum was not completed until the Shire was scoured.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Their blundering cost the life of two major personalities in the Fellowship: Gandalf and Boromir.

About Gandalf:
How did Merry or Pippin cause his death? I think the Balrog had something to do with it. Further, he came back to life (or however you want to say it, not important in this thread), which could be credited for his defeat of Saruman because he was then Gandalf the White. This eliminated an extremely dangerous and cunning enemy from hampering the Quest. So not only was this not Merry or Pippin's fault, it also turned out for the better. (As a side note, I think that Gandalf sort of knew he had to face the Balrog. IIRC, it was Aragorn who was more opposed to going through Moria.)

Boromir died because he deliberately sought out Frodo. When the orcs attacked, he was closer to the Hobbits, and also alone. When Merry and Pippin were captured, he died defending him. But they would have lived even if he had not been there. Boromir placed himself in harms way because he was brave and noble, but also because of his earlier actions towards Frodo.

There is no Elf-Gandalf conspiracy or what have you to be found in Merry and Pippin's inclusion in the Fellowship.

[Pytt]

about gandalf I think he means that Pippin warned the orcs, and the balrog of their, the company's, presence in moria. maybe they had got out without any loses, hadn't pippin alarmed them.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

About Gandalf:
How did Merry or Pippin cause his death?

Pippin's stone on the Balrog's head, figuratively speaking.
They had very good chances to pass Moria unnoiticed and unharmed, if Pippin wouldn't broadcast theirs presence .

I think that Gandalf sort of knew he had to face the Balrog. IIRC, it was Aragorn who was more opposed to going through Moria

.
O, yes, he knew and nevertheless INSISTED on going into Moria tunnels.
No,Aragorn! Don't even try to talk me out of it! I'm already sick and tired of all this responsibilities which Valar hang on me .I have a death wish!

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Boromir died because he deliberately sought out Frodo. When the orcs attacked, he was closer to the Hobbits, and also alone

.
Why exactly he happened to be closer to the Hobbits and alone?
Because they disobeyed Aragorn's order and run wildly into the woods. Aragorn asked Boromir to look after them.
If they would stay where they were ordered to stay the orcs attack would be easily deferred, because between 4 great warriors + 2 hobbits to overtake a hundred orcs would be a child play.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

There is no Elf-Gandalf conspiracy

Let say it's no conspiracy, just politics and decisions made not out of whim , but out of thoroughly weighted up consideration of the nesessary matters for the success of such grandiose and life-or-death issue plan.
Which bring us to inked statement.

Originally Posted by inked

...their simplicity would confound the wise and Sauron. In this regard only was it calculated.

The calculation was made on the clear understanding that only small and quick hobbits, and not commandos with axes and bows, can filter in the heart of Mordor.
What do you think, who would become the Ringbearer if Frodo would been lost in Moria? It seems to me - Sam... King has died, but the show must go on! And exactly for this reason there are 3 spare hobbits in the group, instead of 3 pumped-up warriors. While at least one hobbit remains - the mission is alive.

[EllethValatari]

Originally Posted by Glorfindel_of_Gondolin

So, apart from giving the story more hobbit material, why were Merry and Pippin apart of the fellowship?

Who would every ask such a question? Think about it: Merry and Pippin are the people who add something besides drama to the story! Whenever you're reading and you just have this inner craving for a little simple-minded stupidity, Merry and Pippin are there to help!

[Earniel]

Simple-minded stupidity? Is that all you see when reading about Merry's and Pippin's presence in the Fellowship? I hope not. The film, maybe, but certainly not the book.

[Bombadillo]

They're there to show that every person, no matter how small or insignificant, still has it in him to foster lots of growth and self-betterment.

Character development is rampant in LotR. In the beginning sure they're bumbling idiots, but they're soldiers by the end aren't they? More mature, independent, wise, headstrong, quick on their feet, hearty, literally taller... Pippin's not the type to go accidentally knocking stones into old wells anymore to make a long story short. Tolkien knew what's up. Their growth was more subtle than say, Frodo's or Theoden's, but they're not to be overlooked.

I mean, that's aside from the 9 vs 9 theory, which is okay too, if you really think Elrond and company expected a hobbit to go toe to toe with a witch-king and win.

They are so dearly simple, aren't they? Kids love' em!

[barrelrider110]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Character development is rampant in LotR. In the beginning sure they're bumbling idiots, but they're soldiers by the end aren't they? More mature, independent, wise, headstrong, quick on their feet, hearty, literally taller... Pippin's not the type to go accidentally knocking stones into old wells anymore to make a long story short. Tolkien knew what's up. Their growth was more subtle than say, Frodo's or Theoden's, but they're not to be overlooked.

I mean, that's aside from the 9 vs 9 theory, which is okay too, if you really think Elrond and company expected a hobbit to go toe to toe with a witch-king and win.

They are so dearly simple, aren't they? Kids love' em!

They weren't bumbling idiots, even in the beginning. They were shrewd, loyal and brave. They deduced that Frodo intended to leave the Shire because of the ring. And they decided to accompany him, to leave home, knowing their lives would be at risk. Gandalf knew and argued for an out-of-the-box solution as the only way to defeat Sauron. Gandalf above all at the council of Elrond knew the virtues of the hobbits. And he knew the value of friendship and loyalty; Gildor hints at the same wisdom even before the coucil of Elrond-- the advice he begrudgingly gives Frodo -- "take with you those that are trusty and willing" or something like that.