Gimli, the Dark Lord of Moria

Tinman · 10-04-2010, 12:50 PM

Since I didn't want to hijack another thread, and felt this idea could use a thread of its own, I'll ask it here:

What are the theorized results of a dwarf claiming the one ring?

I have a few mixed feelings on this. Lets take a decent enough dwarf, and the most likely candidate; Gimli. Gimli could have, presumably, taken the one ring. I think if he wanted to, he would have attempted to do so, much like Bormir. So lets assume the plot of the book went differently, and for some reason the ring found its way to his hands.

What would the effects have been if he decided to claim it as his own? We know dwarves are often overcome with Greed. While the original 7 did not effect the dwarves as intended, they most certainly did have an effect on them. I think its safe to say that Gimli would not turn invisible from it. Would he have a sufficient will to utilize it? Does will even matter? Could a dwarf physically master the ring, or would their creation origins prevent them from working with it in such a manner?

GrayMouser · 10-05-2010, 11:30 PM

Given what Tolkien said in his letter about the Ring giving power inproportion to one's orignal stature, then, no.

However, assuming he was left free to play with it for a while, I would guess that he would use its power to attract many other Dwarves, drawn by the lure of wealth, and establish a kingdom somewhere- which, by nature of the Ring, would become a tyrannical one, warring with the Elves and enslaving Men to provide them withfood and the other outside things they needed, using force rather than trading away their ever-increasingly coveted gold.

Moria....you've still got the Balrog down there somewhere- though of course pride, inflamed by the Ring, may overcome caution.

The Gaffer · 10-06-2010, 05:15 AM

Re-reading bits of the Silmarillion recently, there is mention of how dwarves were not amenable to being turned in to "shadow", so they wouldn't go invisible. The same section also points out the the rings they did have made them more lustful of wealth, and jealous of anyone they considered denying them their "right".

No doubt this would extend to all parts of Middle-Earth, and all of its people and all of their endeavours, in time.

A bit like bankers, really.

Tinman · 10-06-2010, 09:34 AM

Do you think he would have rallied the dwarves against moria? My first thought was no... the dwarves would let he men and elves deal with that threat until it actually became an issue, and then probably fall to the same fate as them. Dwarves seemed far more removed from the politics of middle earth then the other peoples.

However, In the council of elrond, the dwarves do mention their concern of the nazgul arriving at Erabor, and threatening them for the one ring. After considering this, im some what apt to think that the dwarves would have to go up against the dark lord sooner than later. I wonder how that would play out.

***Valandil*** · 10-06-2010, 11:53 AM

Yes - an interesting follow-up thought. Here is how it seems to me:

1. First of all, there were really no other Dwarves close to Moria. Even if Gimli was able to drive off or enslave the resident Orcs, and cow the Balrog - he would need to summon other Dwarves to himself - and quite quickly - to be any kind of legitimate ruler at Moria.

2. And what would the rest of the Fellowship have done about it? Or what could they? It might depend on whether Gandalf had already fallen (and if so - he might be on his way to removing the Balrog problem - and be out of the way of things for a month or so). I suppose Boromir and Legolas would have gone home. The Hobbits don't seem like much of a factor. Would Aragorn have tried to stop him somehow? Again - he (Gimli) would need back-up quickly - either enslaved Orcs (at first) - and then as many Dwarves as he could gather. Oooo... and how on earth does he send them messages? Maybe he has to first travel to Erebor, and bring back all the Dwarves there with him.

3. Moria is interestingly positioned between Rivendell and Lorien - between the two realms, or lands, under the control of a bearer of one of the Three Elven Rings.

4. Yes - If Gimli claimed the One Ring, I think Sauron would have known about it immediately. I think all his plans would have shifted to make his main attack from Minas Tirith to Moria - probably launched from Dol Guldur. His attack would have to skirt the north border of Lorien - but would be of sufficient force that it would not be a problem. I do not think Moria could have held out. Not for long, and not under all these circumstances.

Tinman · 10-07-2010, 03:28 PM

Interesting.

Yes, assuming the Gimli got the ring prior to gandalf's death, he would have Gandalf to defend off too... which is arguably more of a threat then the balrog.

Assuming that gandalf had already fallen and destroyed the balrog, i think would logically go home, to Erebor. There, they would have options. I think he would want to reclaim moria (what dwarf wouldnt?), but knowing of the threat of the dark lord, he may pull thorins old trick. Call for as many dwarves as you can, and hid up in the lonely mountain. I have to wonder how long they could have held it for. Erebor was a fairly fortified location, and without a dragon, i think it would be significantly harder to take.

10-04-2010, 12:50 PM	#1
Tinman Enting Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 68	Gimli, the Dark Lord of Moria Since I didn't want to hijack another thread, and felt this idea could use a thread of its own, I'll ask it here: What are the theorized results of a dwarf claiming the one ring? I have a few mixed feelings on this. Lets take a decent enough dwarf, and the most likely candidate; Gimli. Gimli could have, presumably, taken the one ring. I think if he wanted to, he would have attempted to do so, much like Bormir. So lets assume the plot of the book went differently, and for some reason the ring found its way to his hands. What would the effects have been if he decided to claim it as his own? We know dwarves are often overcome with Greed. While the original 7 did not effect the dwarves as intended, they most certainly did have an effect on them. I think its safe to say that Gimli would not turn invisible from it. Would he have a sufficient will to utilize it? Does will even matter? Could a dwarf physically master the ring, or would their creation origins prevent them from working with it in such a manner?

10-05-2010, 11:30 PM	#2
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	Given what Tolkien said in his letter about the Ring giving power inproportion to one's orignal stature, then, no. However, assuming he was left free to play with it for a while, I would guess that he would use its power to attract many other Dwarves, drawn by the lure of wealth, and establish a kingdom somewhere- which, by nature of the Ring, would become a tyrannical one, warring with the Elves and enslaving Men to provide them withfood and the other outside things they needed, using force rather than trading away their ever-increasingly coveted gold. Moria....you've still got the Balrog down there somewhere- though of course pride, inflamed by the Ring, may overcome caution. __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

10-06-2010, 11:53 AM	#5
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Yes - an interesting follow-up thought. Here is how it seems to me: 1. First of all, there were really no other Dwarves close to Moria. Even if Gimli was able to drive off or enslave the resident Orcs, and cow the Balrog - he would need to summon other Dwarves to himself - and quite quickly - to be any kind of legitimate ruler at Moria. 2. And what would the rest of the Fellowship have done about it? Or what could they? It might depend on whether Gandalf had already fallen (and if so - he might be on his way to removing the Balrog problem - and be out of the way of things for a month or so). I suppose Boromir and Legolas would have gone home. The Hobbits don't seem like much of a factor. Would Aragorn have tried to stop him somehow? Again - he (Gimli) would need back-up quickly - either enslaved Orcs (at first) - and then as many Dwarves as he could gather. Oooo... and how on earth does he send them messages? Maybe he has to first travel to Erebor, and bring back all the Dwarves there with him. 3. Moria is interestingly positioned between Rivendell and Lorien - between the two realms, or lands, under the control of a bearer of one of the Three Elven Rings. 4. Yes - If Gimli claimed the One Ring, I think Sauron would have known about it immediately. I think all his plans would have shifted to make his main attack from Minas Tirith to Moria - probably launched from Dol Guldur. His attack would have to skirt the north border of Lorien - but would be of sufficient force that it would not be a problem. I do not think Moria could have held out. Not for long, and not under all these circumstances. __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

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10-06-2010, 05:15 AM	#3
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Re-reading bits of the Silmarillion recently, there is mention of how dwarves were not amenable to being turned in to "shadow", so they wouldn't go invisible. The same section also points out the the rings they did have made them more lustful of wealth, and jealous of anyone they considered denying them their "right". No doubt this would extend to all parts of Middle-Earth, and all of its people and all of their endeavours, in time. A bit like bankers, really.

10-06-2010, 09:34 AM	#4
Tinman Enting Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 68	Do you think he would have rallied the dwarves against moria? My first thought was no... the dwarves would let he men and elves deal with that threat until it actually became an issue, and then probably fall to the same fate as them. Dwarves seemed far more removed from the politics of middle earth then the other peoples. However, In the council of elrond, the dwarves do mention their concern of the nazgul arriving at Erabor, and threatening them for the one ring. After considering this, im some what apt to think that the dwarves would have to go up against the dark lord sooner than later. I wonder how that would play out.

10-07-2010, 03:28 PM	#6
Tinman Enting Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 68	Interesting. Yes, assuming the Gimli got the ring prior to gandalf's death, he would have Gandalf to defend off too... which is arguably more of a threat then the balrog. Assuming that gandalf had already fallen and destroyed the balrog, i think would logically go home, to Erebor. There, they would have options. I think he would want to reclaim moria (what dwarf wouldnt?), but knowing of the threat of the dark lord, he may pull thorins old trick. Call for as many dwarves as you can, and hid up in the lonely mountain. I have to wonder how long they could have held it for. Erebor was a fairly fortified location, and without a dragon, i think it would be significantly harder to take.