Wheel of Time discussions

Beren3000 · 05-29-2004, 05:50 PM

People talk a lot about the reduced readability of the latest books (I'm on the 4th book myself and personally find that the series lost nothing of its shine or "momentum" so far); however, I started this thread for discussions about possible literary meanings or symbols you find in the series.
Anybody got posts?

Falagar · 06-01-2004, 07:42 PM

Sorry, not much on-topic, but a good joke ! Found it on some message-board:

In how many ways can Robert Jordan describe the problems of dealing with women?

Think well before you check the answer.

Three: Rand can wish he was Perrin or Mat, because Perrin and Mat know how to act around girls, Perrin can wish he was Mat or Rand, because they always know what to say, or Mat could wish he was Perrin or Rand because they always get along with girls...

Sorry, didn't really mean to drag this thread off-topic. But to be blunt, I don't think there are any deeper meanings or literary messages - at least I've not discovered any between all the braid-tugging and sniffing. Jordan doesn't seem to have grasped the idea of subtility (just spent two hours going through a Jordan-basher thread and it's two o' clock in the morning, may have something to do with it).

Elvengirl · 06-01-2004, 07:52 PM

lol too true

Beren3000 · 06-02-2004, 02:11 PM

LOOOOOL great joke, man!
Don't worry about talking off-topic. I didn't find a lot of "deeper meanings" myself. I started the thread to see if other people could see what I couldn't. However, I can think of some stuff. Obviously, Rand is a Christ figure. I also think that the Aes Sedai represent the church or something. This way, the people's attitude toward them is explained: an attitude of fear but respect in some, hatred in others etc...as opposed to the old, reverent attitude (people used to respect church more). However, this doesn't make much sense as Rand appears in a time when Aes Sedai have long existed, whereas Christ founded the church.

Any help here?

Falagar · 06-02-2004, 02:20 PM

Mat and Perrin (and Rand, though IMO to a smaller degree) represent the careless, ignorant youth, and during their travels they grow more responisble and learn their ways up in the world. (At least they're supposed to, though it seems like they stop growing somewhere along the way and despite all that's happening to them just remain ignorant.)

Moiraine is a bit Christ-like; she tries to guide Rand (=humanity), sometimes succeeding and sometimes not, until she sacrifices herself in the end to save him (them) because of his (their) own shortcomings.

Not particulary insightful but that's all I got time for now, got to run...

Lollypopgurl · 06-24-2004, 09:24 PM

Lol, Jordan does like to repeat himself on the Rand/Mat/Perrin and women thing.

The 4th book is still good. I think the series slows down around book 6 (Lord of Chaos, right?). Don't remember though, I just finished 9.

Beren3000 · 07-19-2004, 05:33 PM

Mods, can you please close this?

***Tessar*** · 07-21-2004, 01:46 PM

Actually, on the subject of Rand being a Christ Figure:

Jesus didn't fully 'found' the Church, in a sense. There were already 'priests' of a sort, although getting very corrupt. Jesus changed the church and gave it a new foundation (read: the Black Tower).

I would say that Rand as a Christ figure works out nicely

.

Beren3000 · 07-22-2004, 05:00 AM

Thanks for reviving the thread, Tessar. But I beg to differ on one point. What existed before Christ was Judaism, not a church in the strict sense of the word. But your explanation is probably right if we modify it to say that Aes Sedai symbolize Judaist priests and Pharisees. But the problem is, that doesn't seem to make much sense either as the priests and Pharisees were dead set on opposing Christ (the only one who believed in Him that we know of is Nicodemus). I think then that Rand should be taken as a Christ figure, period. If you start thinking about his relation to other characters, the symbolism doesn't hold water.
But maybe RJ never intended his work to be Christian allegory? Maybe he didn't intend it to be symbolic at all? What do you think?

***Tessar*** · 07-22-2004, 12:35 PM

The priests ended up trying to use Christ to glorify their own way.

The White Tower tried to CAPTURE Rand and force him into submission so that he would be under their controll.

It's fairly close, actually

.

brownjenkins · 07-22-2004, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

But maybe RJ never intended his work to be Christian allegory? Maybe he didn't intend it to be symbolic at all? What do you think?

RJ doesn't hit me as someone who really thinks that much about the big picture... he was using themes from religion, sure... but those themes themselves have older mythological roots... so unless RJ came right out and said, this is a christian allegory, i wouldn't think any was intended

Beren3000 · 07-22-2004, 06:03 PM

I see what you mean, brownjenkins. Many times I felt that there is no depth to the books and that they were inteded just as a fantasy story to fascinate fans and entertain readers but nothing more...

***Tessar*** · 07-22-2004, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I see what you mean, brownjenkins. Many times I felt that there is no depth to the books and that they were inteded just as a fantasy story to fascinate fans and entertain readers but nothing more...

I think that's the point of them... there isn't supposed to be depth

.

Beren3000 · 07-23-2004, 04:50 AM

I suppose...(sigh) I just hoped to find another series that had something like Tolkien's depth. But I guess that'd be impossible

***Tessar*** · 07-23-2004, 12:22 PM

Read the DUNE books by Frank Herbert.

The first one was the best, and after that they fizzled out and got REALLY strange, but the first one was awsome, and the others were cool in their depth.

brownjenkins · 07-23-2004, 12:51 PM

i agree... i'm re-reading the dune series at the moment, and it's oozin' depth

i'm actually enjoying the later ones too... especially 'children of...'

it also reminded me of just how blatantly RJ ripped off the fremen when he 'created' his aiel

***Tessar*** · 07-23-2004, 01:08 PM

I just loved the first one soooo much. It was like... well in a way it was almost like reading a 'better' wheel of time.

Beren3000 · 07-23-2004, 05:44 PM

Ok, if it's not too much to ask, can you please tell me the order of the books in the Dune series?

***Tessar*** · 07-23-2004, 06:09 PM

Dune

Dune Messiah

Children of Dune

God Emperor of Dune

Heretics of Dune

Chapterhouse: Dune

I've read to God Emperor of Dune, at which point I didn't enjoy it any more

.

Beren3000 · 07-24-2004, 02:37 AM

Thanks, Tessar

05-29-2004, 05:50 PM	#1
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Wheel of Time discussions People talk a lot about the reduced readability of the latest books (I'm on the 4th book myself and personally find that the series lost nothing of its shine or "momentum" so far); however, I started this thread for discussions about possible literary meanings or symbols you find in the series. Anybody got posts?

06-01-2004, 07:52 PM	#3
Elvengirl Mirthful Maiden Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rivendell Posts: 1,252	lol too true __________________ The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men.~ J.R.R. Tolkien Wanna play? www.thievesguild.com

06-02-2004, 02:20 PM	#5
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Mat and Perrin (and Rand, though IMO to a smaller degree) represent the careless, ignorant youth, and during their travels they grow more responisble and learn their ways up in the world. (At least they're supposed to, though it seems like they stop growing somewhere along the way and despite all that's happening to them just remain ignorant.) Moiraine is a bit Christ-like; she tries to guide Rand (=humanity), sometimes succeeding and sometimes not, until she sacrifices herself in the end to save him (them) because of his (their) own shortcomings. Not particulary insightful but that's all I got time for now, got to run... __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 06-02-2004 at 02:24 PM.

06-24-2004, 09:24 PM	#6
Lollypopgurl Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 222	Lol, Jordan does like to repeat himself on the Rand/Mat/Perrin and women thing. The 4th book is still good. I think the series slows down around book 6 (Lord of Chaos, right?). Don't remember though, I just finished 9. __________________ a violinist...

07-23-2004, 12:51 PM	#16
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	i agree... i'm re-reading the dune series at the moment, and it's oozin' depth i'm actually enjoying the later ones too... especially 'children of...' it also reminded me of just how blatantly RJ ripped off the fremen when he 'created' his aiel __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

06-02-2004, 02:11 PM	#4
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	LOOOOOL great joke, man! Don't worry about talking off-topic. I didn't find a lot of "deeper meanings" myself. I started the thread to see if other people could see what I couldn't. However, I can think of some stuff. Obviously, Rand is a Christ figure. I also think that the Aes Sedai represent the church or something. This way, the people's attitude toward them is explained: an attitude of fear but respect in some, hatred in others etc...as opposed to the old, reverent attitude (people used to respect church more). However, this doesn't make much sense as Rand appears in a time when Aes Sedai have long existed, whereas Christ founded the church. Any help here?

07-19-2004, 05:33 PM	#7
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Mods, can you please close this?

07-21-2004, 01:46 PM	#8
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	Actually, on the subject of Rand being a Christ Figure: Jesus didn't fully 'found' the Church, in a sense. There were already 'priests' of a sort, although getting very corrupt. Jesus changed the church and gave it a new foundation (read: the Black Tower). I would say that Rand as a Christ figure works out nicely .

07-22-2004, 05:00 AM	#9
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Thanks for reviving the thread, Tessar. But I beg to differ on one point. What existed before Christ was Judaism, not a church in the strict sense of the word. But your explanation is probably right if we modify it to say that Aes Sedai symbolize Judaist priests and Pharisees. But the problem is, that doesn't seem to make much sense either as the priests and Pharisees were dead set on opposing Christ (the only one who believed in Him that we know of is Nicodemus). I think then that Rand should be taken as a Christ figure, period. If you start thinking about his relation to other characters, the symbolism doesn't hold water. But maybe RJ never intended his work to be Christian allegory? Maybe he didn't intend it to be symbolic at all? What do you think?

07-22-2004, 12:35 PM	#10
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	The priests ended up trying to use Christ to glorify their own way. The White Tower tried to CAPTURE Rand and force him into submission so that he would be under their controll. It's fairly close, actually .

07-22-2004, 06:03 PM	#12
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	I see what you mean, brownjenkins. Many times I felt that there is no depth to the books and that they were inteded just as a fantasy story to fascinate fans and entertain readers but nothing more...

07-23-2004, 04:50 AM	#14
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	I suppose...(sigh) I just hoped to find another series that had something like Tolkien's depth. But I guess that'd be impossible

07-23-2004, 12:22 PM	#15
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	Read the DUNE books by Frank Herbert. The first one was the best, and after that they fizzled out and got REALLY strange, but the first one was awsome, and the others were cool in their depth.

07-23-2004, 01:08 PM	#17
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	I just loved the first one soooo much. It was like... well in a way it was almost like reading a 'better' wheel of time.

07-23-2004, 05:44 PM	#18
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Ok, if it's not too much to ask, can you please tell me the order of the books in the Dune series?

07-23-2004, 06:09 PM	#19
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	Dune Dune Messiah Children of Dune God Emperor of Dune Heretics of Dune Chapterhouse: Dune I've read to God Emperor of Dune, at which point I didn't enjoy it any more .

07-24-2004, 02:37 AM	#20
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Thanks, Tessar

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