The Silmarillion: Ch 7: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor - Page 4

***Earniel*** · 05-06-2003, 03:36 AM

*shrugs* If you think so. I suppose I can't really get my point across but what I meant is: Who ever said Fëanor never got the chance to defend himself? It wasn't like Fingolfin espected Finwë to immediatly condemn Fëanor. I see Fingolfin as a brother who sees his brother who's prone to hotheaded actions start some trouble and wishes to inform his father of it so that he can take action like a father and not like a king. It's more of a family affair, the council has little to do about it.

The point is that I think that Fingolfin wanted to deal with the case within the family, quietly and quickly without bringing it before the rest of the council where it was bound to go out of hand and spreads even more unrest.

Artanis · 05-06-2003, 05:14 AM

I don't know Eärniel, Fingolfin was keen on being second to the title High King of the Ñoldor. Fingolfin and Fëanor were not only half-brothers, they were also rivals. Not that it is any excuse for Fëanor.

***azalea*** · 05-06-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Attalus
I have seen several theories on the origins of the Dragons, and I am not happy about any of them. The simplest, and probably correct one, IMHO, is that Tolkein just thought Dragons were dragons and there was no need to explain carefully about them like he did with the Balrogs. The second is the one just quoted, that they were Eagles corrupted. I don't care for that, as there is no mention that I can find of any capture of an Eagle by Morgoth. The third is the Maia-of -air one, and I have to admit that it makes the most sense, though, as I say, I am not happy about it. Or Ungoliant or the Watcher in the Water, either.

I agree with you.
Although he could not create or give life to creatures, is it possible that he could give the gift of speech? Perhaps dragons were simply creatures that he brought to his side and to whom he was able to give speech. Just a musing.

There was discussion elsewhere of animals in ME that could speak (was it a raven or rook in The Hobbit?), and maybe dragons learned it in a similar way.

***Earniel*** · 05-06-2003, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
I don't know Eärniel, Fingolfin was keen on being second to the title High King of the Ñoldor. Fingolfin and Fëanor were not only half-brothers, they were also rivals. Not that it is any excuse for Fëanor.

Quite possible. I just never thought about it that way while reading the Silmarillion. Didn't notice that motive.

Maedhros · 05-06-2003, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Who ever said Fëanor never got the chance to defend himself?

You need to be there in order to defend yourself. Fingolfin could have waited for his half brother to arrive and then make the complain to their father. Simple and the right thing to do.

***Earniel*** · 05-07-2003, 02:21 PM

He couldn't have known that Fëanor would arrive before the rest of the council. If the council gathered, it would have been too late to keep it within the family.

Yes, I know it requires your presence in order to defend yourself.

But would you want your brother present (if you have one) as you make a complaint about him to your father? I know I wouldn't, it may be just me but I can only give my own point of view. I know that if I made a complaint about my (hypothetical) brother, my father would know how much truth was in my words and he would certainly have asked the brother in question for his point of view later on before judging or taking action. That way the brother would have gotten a fair chance to defend himself.

Falagar · 05-07-2003, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eärniel
He couldn't have known that Fëanor would arrive before the rest of the council. If the council gathered, it would have been too late to keep it within the family.

Yes, I know it requires your presence in order to defend yourself. But would you want your brother present (if you have one) as you make a complaint about him to your father? I know I wouldn't, it may be just me but I can only give my own point of view. I know that if I made a complaint about my (hypothetical) brother, my father would know how much truth was in my words and he would certainly have asked the brother in question for his point of view later on before judging or taking action. That way the brother would have gotten a fair chance to defend himself.

Of course you don't want to have your (hypothetical) brother in when you're complaining about him, but if your brother walks in on you while you're talking about him behind his back, of course he'll be mad. I would have been mad to, if I found someone talking about me behind my back, especially if it had been my stephbrother who wanted to take my place as the successor (sp?) of my father.

Maedhros · 05-07-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

I just never thought about it that way while reading the Silmarillion. Didn't notice that motive.

In the Shibboleth of Fëanor is stated more clearly, not in the Published Silmarillion.
I will probably post the quote later but in the Morgoth's Ring: Annals of Aman, there is a part in which Finwë says something like: As long as the ban last upon Fëanor my son, I will not meet my people nor those who rule in my place.
Ohhhhhhh.

Artanis · 05-07-2003, 04:30 PM

I believe this is the quote:

Quote:

One thing only marred the design of Manwë. Fëanor indeed came, for him alone Manwë had commanded to come; but Finwë came not nor any others of the Noldor of Formenos. For said Finwë, While the ban lasts upon Fëanor my son, that he may not go to Tuna, I hold myself unkinged, and will not meet my people, nor those that rule in my stead.'

Fëanor came to the festival, met Fingolfin and they were reconciled.

Attalus · 05-13-2003, 07:40 PM

I was reading HoME 4- The shaping of Middle-Earth, and I found it interesting that the original name for Tirion-on-Tuna was Tun, on the hill Cor. So the Tun/Tuna name was going to be in there no matter what. I like Tirion-on-Cor better, myself.

Finrod Felagund · 05-22-2003, 02:05 PM

But, wouldn't Finwe have wanted to be with Feanor, and see his sons reconciled? Because he said he would not go to Tuna while Feanor was banned. But at this particular point, Feanor was allowed back. Why was Finwe so stupid. He should have gone along. If he had, he wouldn't have died!

A curse on the stiff necks of the elves.

matthew · 02-07-2004, 11:42 AM

You know, I think Cassiopela is wrong on the destruction of the sun and moon at the same time as the destruction of Arda. I mean, after all, they were created sortof in the middle of its history. I think I remember reading something about how at some the Silmarills will be gathered together and Yavanna will break them and with their light regrow the two trees. if so, I don't remember where I read it. In HoMe I think......

I have always thought of the Silmarils as being HUGE, you know, like soccer ball sized... although that would give even Morgoth neck cramps.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 02-09-2004, 11:05 AM

Quote:

I have always thought of the Silmarils as being HUGE, you know, like soccer ball sized... although that would give even Morgoth neck cramps

Well, I never thought of them being so large, just because it says this about after Beren had cut the Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth.

From the puplished Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition,1977

Quote:

As he closed it in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a living lamp, but the jewel suffered his touch and hurt him not.

05-06-2003, 03:36 AM	#1
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	shrugs If you think so. I suppose I can't really get my point across but what I meant is: Who ever said Fëanor never got the chance to defend himself? It wasn't like Fingolfin espected Finwë to immediatly condemn Fëanor. I see Fingolfin as a brother who sees his brother who's prone to hotheaded actions start some trouble and wishes to inform his father of it so that he can take action like a father and not like a king. It's more of a family affair, the council has little to do about it. The point is that I think that Fingolfin wanted to deal with the case within the family, quietly and quickly without bringing it before the rest of the council where it was bound to go out of hand and spreads even more unrest. __________________ We are not things.

05-06-2003, 05:14 AM	#2
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	I don't know Eärniel, Fingolfin was keen on being second to the title High King of the Ñoldor. Fingolfin and Fëanor were not only half-brothers, they were also rivals. Not that it is any excuse for Fëanor. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 05-06-2003 at 05:20 AM.

05-07-2003, 02:21 PM	#6
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	He couldn't have known that Fëanor would arrive before the rest of the council. If the council gathered, it would have been too late to keep it within the family. Yes, I know it requires your presence in order to defend yourself. But would you want your brother present (if you have one) as you make a complaint about him to your father? I know I wouldn't, it may be just me but I can only give my own point of view. I know that if I made a complaint about my (hypothetical) brother, my father would know how much truth was in my words and he would certainly have asked the brother in question for his point of view later on before judging or taking action. That way the brother would have gotten a fair chance to defend himself. __________________ We are not things.

05-13-2003, 07:40 PM	#10
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I was reading HoME 4- The shaping of Middle-Earth, and I found it interesting that the original name for Tirion-on-Tuna was Tun, on the hill Cor. So the Tun/Tuna name was going to be in there no matter what. I like Tirion-on-Cor better, myself. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

05-22-2003, 02:05 PM	#11
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	But, wouldn't Finwe have wanted to be with Feanor, and see his sons reconciled? Because he said he would not go to Tuna while Feanor was banned. But at this particular point, Feanor was allowed back. Why was Finwe so stupid. He should have gone along. If he had, he wouldn't have died! A curse on the stiff necks of the elves. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!" Last edited by Finrod Felagund : 05-22-2003 at 02:43 PM.

02-07-2004, 11:42 AM	#12
matthew Enting Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 75	You know, I think Cassiopela is wrong on the destruction of the sun and moon at the same time as the destruction of Arda. I mean, after all, they were created sortof in the middle of its history. I think I remember reading something about how at some the Silmarills will be gathered together and Yavanna will break them and with their light regrow the two trees. if so, I don't remember where I read it. In HoMe I think...... I have always thought of the Silmarils as being HUGE, you know, like soccer ball sized... although that would give even Morgoth neck cramps. __________________ Nai anar caluva tierelyanna Flame me. Go ahead. Matthew in 2028. One by one we're bringing them back. Vote Nader. Stop the hamster eaters!!!! End global warming! Turn on the AC!!! Gadzooks! Run!