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10-05-2018, 08:24 AM | #1 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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A point that annoyed me this chapter is finding out the Valar never told the Eldar of the coming of Men. It was a stupid thing to keep that from them and not just because Morgoth could then use it to drive a wedge between the Valar and the Noldor. But what was any good reason to keep it a secret in the first place? I can't think of one. They were teaching the Eldar pretty much everything else. Why withold this info?
Just think of the possibilities if the Valar had told the Elves of Men and that they were to be their teachers. What if the Eldar had loved the idea? What if they decided that with the help of the Valar they could return to Middle-earth and help heal the hurts there in order to make everything ready of the Second Kindred's arrival? They could have kicked those Valarin lazy butts in gear to take up the task they had so long ago abandonned. There would still be Melkor, waiting like the snake in Paradise, but he wouldn't have been able to min this particular vein of potential discontent. And Middle-earth would have been is no much a better state, even if only until Melkor found another wedge to hammer on. Which brings me to the following, why were the Valar so unconcerned witht the fate of Men? they went to war over the idea that the Eldar would be awakening in a dangerous place but after Melkor's capture, they left Middle-earth in shambles, asleep and full of monsters, fully knowing the Secondborn would be arriving afterwards. Why didn't Ilúvatar remind them of their task either? |
10-05-2018, 12:28 PM | #2 |
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I wonder if they thought they were not supposed to tell. They might have been uncertain what plans Eru Illuvatar had for the interactions of the two... and didn't want to pre-empt anything.
While on the surface you have a point that they seemed to care more about preparing the earth for Elves than for Men - I think this might just be about them gradually withdrawing themselves further and further from the concerns of Middle Earth as time passed by. Whether from weariness, resignation, or something else... they just made themselves less involved the more time went by.
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10-07-2018, 04:50 PM | #3 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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True, the fact that they were even less concerned about Middle-earth after bringing a good deal of Elves to Aman might indeed be a good indication that they were slowly losing interest and involvement. While Yavanna and Oromë often urged action before the Awakening of the Elves, this seems wholy absent after the Elves' March west.
It can hardly be that they thought Men could deal with all the monsters and dormant nature better than the Elves. I guess us mortal Men just aren't as shiny as them Eldar. |
05-03-2003, 11:39 AM | #4 | |
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05-03-2003, 12:35 PM | #5 | ||
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This is what Morgoth's Ring, Annals of Aman, says about the Silmarils: Quote:
(I hate it when my typos are quoted - himslef indeed )
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05-03-2003, 03:26 PM | #6 | |
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05-03-2003, 03:36 PM | #7 | |
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Re: The Silmarillion: Ch 7: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
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05-03-2003, 05:13 PM | #8 | |||
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Fat middle, thanks for the Nimphelos reference. Also, I'm still digesting your long post about the Fëanor and the Silmarils
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05-03-2003, 07:09 PM | #9 |
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I've always thought that Fëanor made the Silmarils because .... he wanted to. He loved gems, he got an idea of how to make gems, he fiddled around with it, then perfected it and made the Sils. I assume Fëanor used "the dews of Telperion and the rain that fell from Laurelin" that Varda stored in the "great vats like shining lakes" to make the Sils - "And the inner fire of the Silmarils Fëanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor".
Unless Varda had asked people to NOT take the dew/rain out of the vats, or unless Fëanor felt in his heart that it was wrong to take some without permission, I don't think anything was wrong at this point. I wonder if the dew/rain in the vats was ever used by anyone else for anything? Or if people would just walk by and look at the beautiful lakes? Was it 'hands off' at the lakes, or would people dip their hands in the beautiful water and let it fall between their fingers back into the lakes? Or throw some up into the air and watch it fall back - little droplets of light.... That must have been a beautiful sight! I think most actions are neutral in themselves - there's nothing wrong with me sitting here having fun on Entmoot, unless I do it so much that my responsibilities suffer and I hurt others or myself (e.g., we eat at McDonalds every night because I don't make dinner 'cause I'm too busy selfishly Mooting, or I don't help the younger kids with their homework for the same reason, etc.) I just picture Fëanor getting this great idea and carrying it through, with no wrong motives at this point in time. Where the wrong comes in, IMO, is when he starts to love them with a greedy love, and that wrong attitude leads to all sorts of horrible choices and actions on his part later on down the road.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-03-2003, 07:57 PM | #10 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-04-2003, 02:43 AM | #11 | |
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05-04-2003, 03:40 AM | #12 |
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thanks
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-04-2003, 10:42 AM | #13 | ||
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I agree with RÃ*an also, that Fëanor's original idea was to make something beautiful, for the joy of it, as I believe was also the driving force behind the changes of the language of the Ñoldor. Maybe he also wanted to show off his skills, or even compete with the Valar and make things as beautiful as the Two Trees?
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05-04-2003, 11:14 AM | #14 | |
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See that in the rings plot Sauron is instructing Celebrimbor & co. as Melkor could have instructed Feanor with the Sils.
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05-04-2003, 11:39 AM | #15 | ||
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05-04-2003, 12:26 PM | #16 | |
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Tolkien speaks in his letters and some other sources. In the Sil. we hear the story as was told by an elf (or by a Numenorean, if he had finished the transformation of the myths).
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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05-04-2003, 01:40 PM | #17 |
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Interesting. I had thought that Feanor rejected Melkor utterly, and did not listen to him. But, he would have to have learned of such an astounding technical feat from somewhere, wouldn't he? Though, apparently the making of jewels was a pastime of the Noldor.
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05-04-2003, 02:05 PM | #18 | |
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05-04-2003, 02:54 PM | #19 |
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You know, I haven't thought of the Phial in a long time. When I first read the books, I felt like Galadriel had made the Phial for Frodo, expressly, like the night before, but read later that the song in my sig was referring to it. Had it been around a long time, like the Elessar? I wonder.
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05-04-2003, 04:26 PM | #20 | |
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