The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë

[Rían]

by Sister Golden Hair:
But his rebellion was unproductive to the intent of Iluvatar.

Originally posted by MasterMothra

it only appeared to be unproductive. what morgoth did or did not do was all for the greater will of eru. morgoth and sauron may have thought what they did was counter-productive, but in the end they were both just instruments of eru.

"for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

thats a good passage.

I was re-reading this thread and this section reminded me of something that I just read today in C. S. Lewis' The Problem of Pain:

In the fallen and partially redeemed universe we may distinguish (1) the simple good descending from God, (2) the simple evil produced by rebellious creatures, and (3) the exploitation of that evil by God for His redemptive purpose, which produces (4) the complex good to which accepted suffering and repented sin contribute. Now the fact that God can make complex good out of simple evil does not excuse - though by mercy it may save - those who do the simple evil. .... A merciful man aims at his neighbour's good and so does "God's will", consciously co-operating with 'the simple good'. A cruel man oppresses his neighbour, and so does simple evil. But in doing such evil, he is used by God, without his own knowledge or consent, to produce the complex good - so that the first man serves God as a son, and the second as a tool. For you will certainly carry out God's purpose, however you act, but it makes a difference to you whether you serve like Judas or like John.

I've seen some people say that Melkor's evil acts were a good thing because Eru produced some good things in response to them. I think that that idea is a misconception. Melkor's actions were indeed evil - but because Eru is greater, he can "trump" those actions to produce what Lewis calls a "complex good".

The question about whether Arda Remade would be better than Arda if it were unmarred - well, I don't think that Eru would be sitting around thinking "oh shoot, why can't someone just hurry up and rebel against me so that I can do a complex good!!" I think that both would be equally good, but perhaps just different - as two pictures by Monet can be equally brilliant but also different. It's certainly a complicated question.

[Rían]

And speaking of the complex good - I'd like to quote one of my favorite sections in the Ainulindalë:

And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'
Then Ulmo answered: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwë, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!' And Manwë and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Ilúvatar.

Isn't that beautiful? And maybe Ilúvatar would have introduced the snowflake in another way if Melkor had not rebelled...

(gee, it's nice to be able to type fast! I can post such long quotes!)

[Rían]

And re Ulmo, who was most instructed in the music, it's interesting that the Eldar say that the echo of the Music of the Ainur lives most in water.

And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen.
Now to water had that Ainu whom the Elves call Ulmo turned his thought, and of all most deeply was he instructed by Ilúvatar in music.

And it's interesting how in the previous quote, Ilúvatar said that the music of the sea was not "utterly quelled" by Melkor. I wonder what it sounded like before Melkor marred it?

[Cirdan]

The theme of music in creation is very interesting as a mechanism in relation to the movement of energy in nature. The wave form in light, sound and motion are universal in nature. Waves can compound or cancel one another, change form and media, and the motion is most visible in water. Water is also always associated with life. The vast water cycle of the earth, land, and sea create a great connectedness: water exists in all realms.

Ulmo seems to be most connected with the earth while Manwe is more connected to Illuvatar. Wheile Ulmo''s influence in middle earth is felt more immediately by the dwellers there, Manwe is most in touch with the will of the creator.

The evil of Melkor is a complex question which cannot really be resolved. It is clear that Illuvatar's will is in his creation and that he could not do else but Illuvatar's intent. If Illuvatar intented there to be no evil in Middle Earth there couldn't be. I have trouble with the free will idea being applied to a deity. I think that the message is that evil exists to contrast to that which is good.

The question arises as to whether free will can exist without temptation and fear. Melkor exists to manifest these aspects of nature. The evil is a force not for good but for greater good through trial. Would the Simarils evoked so much creation of the nature of elves sitting is a glass case in Arda? Would Beren and Luthien's tale be as powerful if they just settled down and had a few offspring? Melkor must be evil for the true nature of the inhabitants to be realized and for them to have free will.

Like the music the experiment of Middle Earth has a beginning and an end. What exists outside is non-creation or potential creation. Not always silence but rather discord. The music of creation overlays the discord and even removes it by taking advantage of the harmonic tendency of all things to create somthing greater than the sum of the parts..

[Keith K]

The entries in this thread have been an interesting read. All of y'all 'philosophers' have been well spoken and have made informed and intellegent points. Of course philosophy is all a matter of opinion and there is no "right" answer in the debate over good vs. evil / marred vs. unmarred.

IMO, there must be balance in the universe/Ea. If there is good, then its opposite must also be present in the form of evil. Yin and Yang, matter and anti-matter, so to speak.

While I cannot say what Illuvitars' "intent" was regarding the evil in Melkor, I feel that Arda unmarred would be a very boring place. Where's the story if everyone lives "happily ever after" right from the beginning?

[Rían]

I wouldn't say that Tolkien's Ea is yin/yang, though - from letter #156 (one of the footnotes):

from letter #156 by JRR Tolkien:
There is only one 'god': God, Eru Ilúvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, of which those most concerned in the Cosmogony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or governors; and there are incarnate rational creatures, Elves and Men, of similar but different status and natures.

Now the yin/yang thing comes in one level down from Ilúvatar, IMO - Melkor and Manwë - but it is very clear that the One has no equal (or opposite 'evil' power of equal stature).

[Rían]

Keith K - your last paragraph reminds me of the following passage:

from The Hobbit, by you know who!
Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.

[Keith K]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
but it is very clear that the One has no equal (or opposite 'evil' power of equal stature).

Perhaps the Great Void can be construed to be the opposite of Illuvatar. Nothingness vs. Creation.

[Wayfarer]

Perhaps, but I think that on the whole dualism is deeply flawed.

If what you say is true, what could possibly be the reason of remaking arda without the evil influences? That would, by your reasoning, be unbalancing the universe, and would be a bad thing.

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Perhaps, but I think that on the whole dualism is deeply flawed.

If what you say is true, what could possibly be the reason of remaking arda without the evil influences? That would, by your reasoning, be unbalancing the universe, and would be a bad thing.

Oh my! Have I gone and unbalanced the universe......again?
Actually, the attempt to remake Arda is merely a continuation of the original battle of good vs. evil. The duality exists.

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Perhaps, but I think that on the whole dualism is deeply flawed.

All philosophies are flawed in one way or another.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Keith K
Perhaps the Great Void can be construed to be the opposite of Illuvatar. Nothingness vs. Creation.

Then I think that Tolkien would have said that in his letter.

[Cirdan]

The duality can exist without being balanced. The dark side tends to be more insidious and "worldly" while the good side is more powerful by reason and beauty. Destruction is easier than creation but draws much less ardent and stalwart supporters.

[Maedhros]

This are interesting things that I got out of the Music of the Ainur from BOLT 1.

Thereafter he fashioned them dwellings in the void, and dwelt among them, teaching them all manner of things, and the greatest of these was music.

Made them dwellings in the Void? Interesting. Notice the inference that something was made before the Music.

Then said Ilúvatar: "The story that I have laid before you, and that great region of beauty that I have described unto you as the place where all that history might be unfolded and enacted, is related only as it were in outline. I have not filled all the empty spaces, neither have I recounted to you all the adornments and things of loveliness and delicacy whereof my mind is full.

Extremely familiar with the Published Silmarillon.

Never was there before, nor has there been since, such a music of immeasurable vastness of splendour; though it is said that a mightier far shall be woven before the seat of Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End. Then shall Ilúvatar's mightiest themes be played aright; for then Ainur and Men will know his mind and heart as well as may be, and all his intent.

Notice that he speaks of Men and not the Children of Ilúvatar. Perhaps, that is why in the Athrabeth, when Finrod says that Men have the power to make things right that Melkor perverted in the theme?

There had he nonetheless fallen to thinking deep cunning thoughts of his own, all of which he showed not even to Ilúvatar. Some of these devisings and imaginings he now wove into his music, and straightway harshness and discordancy rose about him, and many of those that played nigh him grew despondent and their music feeble, and their thoughts unfinished and unclear, while many others fell to attuning their music to his rather than to the great theme wherein they began.

Notice the detail and the emphasis in the time that Melkor spent in the Void. Did his thoughts had something to do with the fact that he was alone in the Void without the other Ainur?

Then Ilúvatar raised his right hand, and he no longer smiled but wept; and behold a third theme, and it was in no way like the others

Notice the difference with the Published Silmarillion, here Ilúvatar wept.

Thou Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Ilúvatar's self, nor can any alter the music in Ilúvatar's despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder: -- for lo! Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the depths of the uttermost of the dark places, come into the design that I laid before you. Through him has pain and misery been made in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire and all putrescence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent flame, cold without mercy, been born, and death without hope. Yet is this through him and not by him; and he shall see, and ye all likewise, and even shall those beings, who must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko misery and sorrow, terror and wickedness, declare in the end that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make the theme more worth the hearing, Life more worth the living, and the World so much the more wonderful and marvellous, that of all the deeds of Ilúvatar it shall be called his mightiest and his loveliest."

Notice the quality in the detail, and the clarity in which it is implied that Arda Reborn or Remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred.

but of all these water was held the fairest and most goodly and most greatly praised. Indeed there liveth still in water a deeper echo of the Music of the Ainur than in any substance else that is in the world, and at this latest day many of the Sons of Men will hearken unsatedly to the voice of the Sea and long for they know not what.

Again the importance of Water, and the fact that the one most responsible for it, was the one who was most instructed by Ilúvatar in the art of Music.

Knowing all their hearts, still did Ilúvatar grant the desire of the Ainur, nor is it said he was grieved thereat.

This is missing from the Published Silmarillion. Ilúvatar grieved from the departing of some of his Ainur.
Che pensi tu?

[Rían]

Maedhros, I read that last quote to mean that He was NOT grieved - IOW, it was NOT said that He was grieved, so He wasn't grieved. Opinions??

[Cirdan]

I think it means it is not known whether he was grieved or not.

[Rían]

Yes, Cirdan, I think logically it certainly means that we don't know whether or not He was grieved. I think, however, classically that form is used to show that, in this case, He was not grieved over a situation where one might think that He might be grieved. Do you know what I mean? It's a way of saying, poetically and lyrically, "Well, you think that Ilúvatar might be bummed about some of his main guys faffing off to Arda, but I haven't heard that He was at all, so I guess it was cool!"

[Cirdan]

I thinl you could assume he was not grieved as that would have been notable. You could also assume there was some grief at the parting or that things weren't quite as he had wished them. While it is open to interpretation I would agree with the former were I to choose.

[Earniel]

Notice that he speaks of Men and not the Children of Ilúvatar. Perhaps, that is why in the Athrabeth, when Finrod says that Men have the power to make things right that Melkor perverted in the theme?

Since Men where the only ones from the Children of Ilúvatar whose fate wasn't controlled by the themes it would seem logical IMO that they could make the music right in the end since they were not part of the themes that went before and were corrupted by Melkor.

(whoa long sentense!)

[Rían]

Yes, that section in the Athrabeth is very intriguing, isn't it?