The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë

[Maedhros]

1. Why was Melkor (being the most powerful of the Ainur), the one who most wanted to do things by his own thought?

But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own

Is it a reality in the Silmarillion that the most powerful beings are flawed in a way that they tend to curve to evil?
2. Is the Universe Predefined?

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

3. Is Melkor's shame but the beginning of his downfall? Is this the beginning of the element of Pride?
4. Where the Children of Ilúvatar a response to the discord of Melkor? Or was it just the fact that Ilúvatar wanted to made other beings in accord to what he knew best?

In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased.

5. What made some Ainur more entralled to the idea of going to Arda and so to join themselves with the fate of the world?

And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme,

6. Why was Ulmo the one most instructed by Music by Ilúvatar? Does this has in fact something to do with the way he acts as the story goes on?
7. Is this but a presage to all of us that Arda remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred?

And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'

8. Is it better to stay with Ilúvatar or go to Arda?

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs.

9. Melkor becomes a Rebel. Is there any correlation to the way the Silmarillion threats other rebels too?

And there was strife between Melkor and the other Valar; and for that time Melkor withdrew and departed to other regions and did there what he would; but he did not put the desire of the Kingdom of Arda from his heart.

[Artanis]

Ah, so many questions at once. Are we supposed to discuss all these topics simultaneously? I'll start at the top then, and continue downwards:

1. I've tried to give an answer to this in the "Iluvatar made Melkor evil" thread. I think Melkor, because of his great power and knowledge, considered himself almost as powerful as Iluvatar, and wanted to be like him, and to create things of his own. He went to seek the Imperishable Flame, but when he couldn't find it, he instead tried to alter the music of the Ainur, perhaps to try out his own power. The others of the Ainur may also have had the desire to create, but they did not try it, because it was clear their power wasn't great enough.

This goes for Melkor. His fate was to desire a power he never could have, but still one that lay just outside his reach. I don't think powerful beings are generally more flawed than others, but I do think they are subject to greater temptations.

2. This topic have been discussed in length in the "Iluvatar made Melkor evil" thread. I tend to think that free will truly exist, at least for Men, with the implication that the Universe is not predestined (but I know not all of you agree of the logic here).

Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else;

But as MasterMothra pointed out, it's all to easy to project one's beliefs from this real world onto Ea, and I confess that I'm probably guilty of doing just that.

3. Well, that depends on what is considered evil. Melkor tried to be a creator like Iluvatar. Is that a fall? My moral code says no, because I don't think Melkor had evil purposes then, but still it may be Iluvatar's moral code says yes. According to my moral code, the fall began with the feeling of shame, and the anger that followed. But then, my moral code is not valid within Ea.

TBC

[markedel]

I think Melkor was supposed to be the prime mover of the sub-creative element, but that made him want to create-and that's a sin.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Ah, so many questions at once. Are we supposed to discuss all these topics simultaneously?

Hello Artanis. I was hoping that you and Rian would be active participants in this project. Right now we will only be discussing the Ainulindale. Whenever Maedhros is ready I will post one more sticky to assign chapters to volunteers, then we will spend three weeks discussing each chapter one at a time. All volunteers will be responsible for researching thier chapter and posting the intro thread when the time comes. Should be fun for all.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Melkor was so intent upon inflating his part in the music, that he heeded little the other parts. Thus he had little foresight of events in EA that he did not himself create. Thus while other like Lorien, Mandos, Manwe, and even Maiar like Melian, had much power of prophacy, most of it came a a suprise to Melkor. World conquerors should sing less and listen more.

[Getchan]

The Ainur who left Iluvatar fell in love with the vision of the world, and the Children of Iluvatar. Although both didn't turn out like they thought they would. It's like when people decide to have kids. They love the idea of it, and they enjoy them when they're young. But as they grow older, things become more difficult and stressful. Some kids are good and some are rebels. But the parents don't second guess their decision to have kids-they love them no matter what. Suckers.

[Rían]

Hello everyone - what a great idea this is! And SGH - you want me to participate?? You know how wordy I get!

Actually, I'll make my first post very brief. As Artanis said, we discussed a lot over in the Did Ilúvatar make Melkor Evil thread - I'd recommend that you people take a quick scan over there. Some very interesting thoughts about free will and predestination and responsibility for the presence, or even the possibility, of evil.

Lefty - I really like your thought - yes, often the downfall of evil people is that they are so intently focused on themselves. That was definitely part of Sauron's downfall - he, at first, only thought of what HE would do if he found the ring and was in Aragorn's position. He didn't seem to even think that they might try to destroy it at first; he thought they would use it to fight against him. Because of that error in judgement, the fellowship had some extra time that was sorely needed.

[Artanis]

Continued from my first post:

4. I've always regarded the Children as a response to Melkor's discord. Without the discord the music would have been solely good.

But now Iluvatar sat ans hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws.

5. I think those of the Ainur who had contributed most to the music, and therefore had the greatest part in the making of Arda, were also most eager to descent into it.

6. I'm not sure what you're getting at here Maedhros. The Valar were given different skills, and took special interest in different parts of the world.

7. Arda remade is imo definately going to be better than Arda unmarred. I base this upon the Athrabeth from Morgoth's Ring, and from the following quote from the Ainulindale:

Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

8. Would it have been better for the Valar to stay with Iluvatar? No, I don't think so. Though from your quote the fate of the Valar and tha Maiar at the end of the world is not clear, I think they will eventually take part in the making of Arda remade.

9. Again I'm not sure about your question. Who should we consider as rebellions in the Sil?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Melkor was so intent upon inflating his part in the music, that he heeded little the other parts. Thus he had little foresight of events in EA that he did not himself create. Thus while other like Lorien, Mandos, Manwe, and even Maiar like Melian, had much power of prophacy, most of it came a a suprise to Melkor. World conquerors should sing less and listen more.

That should be a lesson to all of us, I think.

Melkor also spent much time away from the other Ainur, when he was out in the Void seeking the Imperishable Flame. Therefore he didn't gain much understanding of his brethren, and didn't learn how to be in harmony with them.

[Maedhros]

I've always regarded the Children as a response to Melkor's discord. Without the discord the music would have been solely good.

It is an interesting point that you make. Does this imply that without Melkor's discord we would have no Chilren of Ilúvatar? Or rather that they would have been created in another fashion.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here Maedhros. The Valar were given different skills, and took special interest in different parts of the world.

It just that I find interesting that Ulmo appers to be acting against the Valar in the Silmarillion, and he has the peculiarity of being the one most instructed in Music by Ilúvatar.

Again I'm not sure about your question. Who should we consider as rebellions in the Sil?

I consider rebels those who go against the established authority. Ex: Melkor go against Ilúvatar, Fëanor against the Valar, etc. Tolkien seems harsh on his treatment of rebels, except those of Númenor who rebelled against Ar-Pharazôn.

Another interesting question is:
Why Music was used for the creation of the World?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Does this imply that without Melkor's discord we would have no Chilren of Ilúvatar? Or rather that they would have been created in another fashion.

I think there would have been neither Elves nor Men, and not any Dwarves. Perhaps there wouldn't have been any Ea at all, only as a vision given by Ilúvatar to the Ainur. But this is mere speculations.

It just that I find interesting that Ulmo appers to be acting against the Valar in the Silmarillion, and he has the peculiarity of being the one most instructed in Music by Ilúvatar.

Was Ulmo really acting against the Valar, or was he just acting differently from them?

I don't know why he was most instructed in music. But it is said that he never lived in Valinor, but stayed in the waters of ME, and the music in the water never ceased to be, not even under Morgoth's darkness. Also the Teleri came to learn much about music from him.

Tolkien seems harsh on his treatment of rebels, except those of Númenor who rebelled against Ar-Pharazôn.

I would say those who openly and consciously rebel against the highest authority, that is Ilúvatar himself, receives a harse treatment. But by this definition of a 'rebel' there are not many true rebels; Melkor, Feanor, and Ar-Pharazôn.

Another interesting question is:
Why Music was used for the creation of the World?

That is, I think, a question only Ilúvatar knows the answer to. But I'd be happy to hear what people think is the answer.

[Eldanuumea]

SGH just clued me in to this enormous undertaking.....this is my first glance at this thread, and I am overwhelmed!
I will need to print it out and do some "homework" before really jumping in.....but I wanted to get my feet wet!
This is a most ambitious undertaking, and I look forward to going deeper in to the Sil.

[MasterMothra]

Originally posted by Artanis
That should be a lesson to all of us, I think.

Melkor also spent much time away from the other Ainur, when he was out in the Void seeking the Imperishable Flame. Therefore he didn't gain much understanding of his brethren, and didn't learn how to be in harmony with them.

why should melkor try to understand his brethern, they were beneath him and inferior? he was the mightiest among them and was given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.

its better to burn out.... than to fade away.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
why should melkor try to understand his brethern, they were beneath him and inferior? he was the mightiest among them and was given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.

its better to burn out.... than to fade away.

Balderdash. I just wrote a response to that, but my computer was generous enough to delete it all for me.

Anyway, the basic thing I was going to say was in putting together some of the posts that other people in this thread have already sent. Better connecting to your brethren is simply the right thing to do, and it's arrogance to not connect yourself with them. Even if Melkor was the most powerful, there were things that he didn't understand. Manwe was closest to the heart of Ilúvatar and Ulmo was best instructed in the music. Others had better gifts of prophesy and other things, but it is wrong to assume that because in your particular field you're better than all the others are in their different fields, what they know isn't worth becoming acquainted with.

Melkor becomes a Rebel. Is there any correlation to the way the Silmarillion threats other rebels too?

This is one of the few other questions here that I can give an opinion on, for some of the others to me seem to be very difficult to answer (although maybe I just haven't studied the Silmarillion enough ).

I believe in my last post on the "Did Ilúvatar make Melkor evil?" thread, I pretty well established that Ilúvatar is good. Going on that assumption (You're free to quote and disagree with that post I'm referring to), then it is the bad rebel that will be punished, and not the bad. Whether someone is a rebel or not is immaterial, but whether they are on the side of good or evil is the point. Redemption is possible too, though.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
why should melkor try to understand his brethern, they were beneath him and inferior? he was the mightiest among them and was given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.

That's true. But I think that even he needed to listen to his brethren to gain a deeper understanding of their thoughts.

But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of
Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unisoon and harmony.

[MasterMothra]

i think of eru more as a force of nature. good and bad are labels we tend to place on things so that we may classify them. so theres my theory. lets face it, melkor is the opposite of what the other valar represent, and something that most tend to dislike. so what? he's a necessary part of a wonderful story, and he is necessary. he's a rebel against the establishment, he does things the way he wants. thats what i like about him. he's supposed to be arrogant, he's supposed to dismiss the importance of the other valar, reject their pitifull existence that requires them to do what they are told. he makes a good story better. i guess thats why eru sent him to arda in the first place. think about it. if you were eru and melkor pulled the crap he did before the world was made, would you send him there? someone that would have a say in how the world was shaped? i dont think eru was that much of a chump, he knew what he was doing by allowing melkor to help shape arda.

i am finished

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
why should melkor try to understand his brethern, they were beneath him and inferior?

IMO, the Valar were made to work in unison with one another to shape Arda in the preparation of the coming of the Children of Iluvatar. By Melkor rejecting to be in unison with his brethren and by squandering his strength and gifts given to him by Iluvatar he forever changed the intent of the creation and marred it.

he's a rebel against the establishment, he does things the way he wants. thats what i like about him. he's supposed to be arrogant, he's supposed to dismiss the importance of the other valar, reject their pitifull existence that requires them to do what they are told.

But his rebellion was unproductive to the intent of Iluvatar.

[MasterMothra]

But his rebellion was unproductive to the intent of Iluvatar. [/B][/QUOTE]

it only appeared to be unproductive. what morgoth did or did not do was all for the greater will of eru. morgoth and sauron may have thought what they did was counter-productive, but in the end they were both just instruments of eru.

"for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

thats a good passage.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
IMO, the Valar were made to work in unison with one another to shape Arda in the preparation of the coming of the Children of Iluvatar. By Melkor rejecting to be in unison with his brethren and by squandering his strength and gifts given to him by Iluvatar he forever changed the intent of the creation and marred it.

Yes, that's why his is a discordant note in Ilúvatar's song.

And MasterMothra, would you please reveal to me the quote that says Ilúvatar sent Melkor to Middle Earth? Permitting and sending are two very different things, but that gets into the whole discussion of predestination, and that's discussed in the "Did Ilúvatar make Melkor evil?" thread.

"for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

That simply demonstrates that Ilúvatar can turn evil to good. If he is all powerful, then it makes a lot of sense that he can do that.

[MasterMothra]

sorry, mr leif garret, i didnt know syntax was so important, my apologies. so morgoth was "allowed" to enter arda. my argument still stands: why did eru allow a rebelious being in a place where he could negatively affect the process? was it a surprise to any that melkor would rebel in arda? he rebeled to the face of eru, what makes you think he wouldnt rebel when he had no supervision? personnally i dont think that eru, an omnipotent god, was that naive.

now lets take a look at the whole quote:

"and thou, melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

that quote, to me, means just what it says. no metaphors, no hidden meanings, just straightforward reading.

maybe you can tell me what this quote means, since i am obviously incapable of doing it myself.


" and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that i set before you, all those things which it may "seem" that he himself devised or added. "

thank you in advance