Book V; ch IX and X. The Last Debate and The Black Gate Opens

[crickhollow]

Thanks for your patience, guys, I was actually in the middle of posting this last night when I lost my internet connection.

V; ix The Last Debate

The Last Debate is a breath of calm before a final plunge into the last great battle in the war of the ring. The houses of Healing deals with the aftermath of the battle of Pelannor Fields, but in chapter nine the reader finally gets a chance to draw a breath. There is even quite a bit of lightheartedness, at the reunion of the remnant of the fellowship, though each is still burdened by what lies ahead. This is also Tolkien’s last chance to fill in any missing details, before bringing us to the climactic battle for the fellowship, and then plunging us into the dark and oppressive Mordor with Sam and Frodo (my least favorite part of the story, if truth be told).

1.characters and major plot points
The friendship of Legolas and Gimli (the most unlikely friendship of all) is highlighted again in this chapter: “Together the Elf and the Dwarf entered Minas Tirith, and folk that saw them pass marveled to see such companions”. Tolkien notes their differences in reference both to their oddity as a pair (when I was in high school I had a friend who was 4’11”, and I was 5’10”. My mom called us the long and the short of it), and to their strengths. Gimli promises to rebuild Minas Tirith to its former strength, and Legolas sees its need for beauty, and growing things.
The four friends meet again in the houses of healing, and recap their adventures for the benefit of one another, and also for those of us listening in. We’ve heard most of everything from Merry and Pippin’s points of view; now Legolas and Gimli tell of their journey through the Paths of the Dead, and the ensuing battles to the south.

The chapter closes on a more somber note: our fearless leaders, the Captains of the West, are strategies for battle and for brining aid to the ring-bearer. They agree to the counsel of Gandalf and Aragorn; to make themselves bait for the dark lord, in hopes of giving Frodo a chance to make it across the wasteland to Mount Doom. “We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dur be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age. But this, I deem, is our duty. And better so than to perish nonetheless—as we surely shall, if we sit here—and know as we die that no new age will be.” – Gandalf

2.Favorite scenes/quotes

“Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till.” My friend, Brandon, told me the same thing last summer, when we were having a conversation about life-goals, and figuring out what God has planned for your life. He said, “Do the good that’s in front of you”, and I love it, because I’m not a one-man revolution. I’m a solitary person, and the world’s problems can be very overwhelming. But I can do whatever’s good that’s in front of me.

“Up with your beard, Durin’s son!” -- Legolas

Anything Gandalf and Aragorn say during the last debate. I’m a sucker for death with valour speeches.

3.questions, comments for discussion.


1. The ships of the Corsairs coming upriver with their black sails reminds me of the old story about the King of Crete, who sacrifices his daughter to the Minotaur. Anyone else remember that story? I haven’t read it since I was a kid. But it end up that she and the rest of her group are rescued, and they sail back to Crete, but when the king sees the ship with black sails on the horizon, he takes it as confirmation of his daughter’s death, and kills himself. I was never very excited about ancient mythology and history; this was just a story I remember from when I was a kid. Are there other instances where Tolkien borrows an old story and I just never noticed?

2. This may have been discussed in the previous chapters, but what are your feelings on Aragorn’s decision to remain outside of the city? To me it adds to his sort of Christ-figure status: “Foxes have holes; birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” Ioreth’s observation that the true king has the hands of a Healer, and the fact that there have been many prophecies concerning his coming all add to that effect. Now, obviously, I know this is not an allegory, and I know that Aragorn is a man of war (lots of correlations to the young Beowulf), and Jesus came as a lamb to the slaughter. I know that similes and metaphors only go so far before they break down. I’m just sayin’…

3. This chapter is the point when I begin to admire this new character to whom we’ve recently been introduced. We don’t get much of his history here, and I know our purpose of discussion is to stick to LotR itself, but can any HoME scholars point me to where Tolkien gives us more of Imrahil?

V; X The Black Gate Opens

1.Characters and major plot points.

Merry is left behind in Minas Tirith; he watches the rest of the Fellowship head toward Mordor, presumably to die in battle there. Pippin marches with the soldiers of Gondor, and the two friends are once more separated. After a long march The King and his host arrive at the gates of Mordor to challenge the dark lord. The Captains treat with The Mouth of Sauron, reject his terms of “peace”, and begin the final battle.

2.Favorite scenes/quotes.

“Surety you crave! Sauron gives none. If you sue for his clemency you must first do his bidding. These are his terms. Take them or leave them!”
“These we will take!” said Gandalf suddenly. He cast asid his cloak and a white light shone forth like a sword in that black place…These we will take in memory of our friend,” he cried. “But as for your terms, we reject them utterly.”

“But no! That came in his tale, long long ago. This is my tale, and it is ended now. Good-bye!” – Pippin

3. Questions, comments for discussion.

1. I find it interesting that they went “openly yet heedfully”. Why do you think caution figured into their plans at this point? Why, if they were so hopeless (“So time and hopeless journey wore away” page 169) for their own situation, did they not run full speed at the Black Gate, kamikaze style?

2. I’ve re-read this chapter several times, and I just noticed the term “Morannon”. Is The Morannon referring to The Black Gate, or the field/area in front of the gate?

3. Do you think that The Captains of the West believed the ring to be in Sauron’s hands after seeing Frodo’s things in the hands of the enemy?

4. I can’t help comparing Merry’s and Pippin’s experiences in battle. Any thoughts on this one? Votes as to who’s the bravest? Like Merry, Pippin was the only hobbit on the battlefield, and he marked out and killed one significant (even to men--the troll struck down Beregond just before Pippin killed it) opponent.