Chapter VIII and IX: The Scouring of the Shire and The Grey Havens

[Landroval]

I think it is relevant to our discussion to mention the source of inspiration for Sam, as stated in Tolkien's biography:

Originally Posted by Part two: Early Years, J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography, by Humphrey Carpenter

These old campaigners were ready to take advantage of any slip made by a recruit, and Tolkien reported that they treated him like an inferior schoolboy. He had more respect for the ‘men’, the N.C.O.s and privates who made up the other eight hundred or so members of the battalion. A few of them were from South Wales but most were Lancashire men. Officers could not make friends among them, for the system did not permit it; but each officer had a batman, a servant who was detailed to look after his kit and care for him much in the manner of an Oxford scout. Through this, Tolkien got to know several of the men very well. Discussing one of the principal characters in The Lord of the Rings he wrote many years later: ‘My "Sam Gamgee" is indeed a reflexion of the English soldier, of the privates and batmen I knew in the 1914 war, and recognised as so far superior to myself.’

[The Gaffer]

Thanks for that quote, Landroval. I wonder who the "old campaigners" were? It seems as if Tolkien had a problem with the lower classes except where they were assigned to serve him.

Just a few things that spring to mind around the Shire's class system:
- Sam calling Frodo "Master" throughout
- Sam calls Pippin and Merry "Master" too at times
- Frodo, and others, referring to him as his servant
- Bilbo's kindness to "less important families"
- The hobbits' concern with lineage

But it would appear there is also a class mobility, such as the "rise" of the Gamgees afterwards, which would set it apart from the English class system

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

... I wonder who the "old campaigners" were? It seems as if Tolkien had a problem with the lower classes except where they were assigned to serve him...

Not necessarily so.

I think what you often have in our modern-time armies, is young officers coming in, fresh from college or officer-training or a military academy - being placed in command of men who are older than them and who have been in the thick of numerous battles over the course of several years.

It's quite natural for these sort of "old campaigners" to hold a little resentment toward the young officers who are placed over them. Yet they will still follow their orders, even if they lead to disaster (which they often will, due to the inexperience of the officer).

So - I don't know if Tolkien actually held them in contempt - he was probably just "sizing up" the situation.

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Thanks for that quote, Landroval. I wonder who the "old campaigners" were? It seems as if Tolkien had a problem with the lower classes except where they were assigned to serve him.

The previous sentence in the biography says (bearing in mind these are Humphrey Carpenter's words, not Tolkien's own):

The older company commanders and adjutants were in many cases professional soldiers dug out of retirement, men with narrow minds and endless stories of India or the Boer War.

I don't think that in the First World War most such men would have been working class. In fact they probably looked down on Tolkien's social origins rather than the other way around (lower middle class, Catholic...)

Anyway, I agree that the Shire has a pretty clear class system. It's not feudalism in the strictest sense, more like a benign and idealised version of the social structure of 19th and early 20th century rural England. This kind of structure allows for social mobility like Sam's through education and the help of a wealthy patron, since rare cases like these reinforce the status quo rather than challenging it.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

8. Discuss the technology used in Galadriel's gift - the soil that allowed one grain to increase the trees' growth rate to twenty times the natural rate. This seems to be one of the few technologies Tolkien approves of.

Interesting point... Possibly Tolkien wouldn't have considered this a form of 'technology' at all, more like a very efficient kind of traditional husbandry. I suppose the difference is that Galadriel's method works in harmony with nature, rather than trying to violently exploit it for profit.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by sun-star

The previous sentence in the biography says (bearing in mind these are Humphrey Carpenter's words, not Tolkien's own):





Anyway, I agree that the Shire has a pretty clear class system. It's not feudalism in the strictest sense, more like a benign and idealised version of the social structure of 19th and early 20th century rural England. This kind of structure allows for social mobility like Sam's through education and the help of a wealthy patron, since rare cases like these reinforce the status quo rather than challenging it.

I agree, it clearly is not a class system as comparable to the alleged english class system of rank and privelage.
I see use of words such as hammer and gaffer and master as a more idealised rural idyl, and since we know that JRR uses language very carefully in description more than most, this i think is how he intends it - it goes against all evidence of what he creates with the shire and what it stands for to have any direct comparison to any rigid and 'orcish' (in tolkien's mind) system- after all - isn't this the whole point of the 'scouring of the shire' chapter???

the whole contrast of the whole work is seen, to me, in the hobbits and the free shire and it's hark back to a quiet peaceful life and the world cruelly turning to power hungry, industrialsation and war and regimentation of the world gone mad ...

whoever says there were not rich and poor and a beleivable culture???

... of course!

... but to say it is classism seems patently mad to me.



best, BB

[jammi567]

I agree with you. It was just the way country people in his time would speek. Nothing about a class system.

[The Gaffer]

Well, we're going to have to agree to differ on that one I'm afraid: I can't see how anyone could convince me that Tolkien's Shire is NOT a very clear class system. I see it as an idealized, neo-feudal agrarian system, in which the upper class have a genuine sense of stewardship and responsibility towards the lower, and in return, the lower class have a sense of duty towards the upper.

However, I agree, BB, that this adds to the realism and authenticity of it.

On to Galadriel's "technology". I suspect that JRRT would balk at the use of the term in connection with Galadriel's box.

* fnarr, fnarr *

I think it's more a kind of blessing. The interesting thing about it is how its virtue is multiplied ijn response to Sam's wish to heal the hurts of all the Shire, and not just his own garden.

[jammi567]

Yeah, like: the more you want nature repaired, the more power it'll give you in doing that.

[Nurvingiel]

I agree with the Gaffer about the Hobbit class system as part of their society. That doesn't mean Hobbits are bad or anything, it just means that not all their positions of authority are merit-based, like the Mayor.

I took the "old campaigners" in the biography quote to mean Tolkien's superiors, though it seems I got it backwards. No officer likes the soldiers he commands to be insubordinate, regardless of their class.

Tolkien doesn't strike me as having a problem with lower classes, I merely think he wrote one into Hobbit society. (And to varying degrees, all the societies in Middle-earth.)

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

* fnarr, fnarr *

i disagree on da agreeing to disagree bit

i can go with most of your agrarian stewardship bit, but not the class element. Suppose it ultimately depends on what you mean by class.

But a rigid structure that alludes to class and a rigid system is clearly not the shire.

El Nurv:

Tolkien doesn't strike me as having a problem with lower classes, I merely think he wrote one into Hobbit society. (And to varying degrees, all the societies in Middle-earth.)

yes and no.

This to me, is actually rather an astute point - given the rigidity of ancestral lineage and the taller more noble kings and lords and etc etc ... and the con-commitant classism inherrent throughout all his middle earth writings-

it all actually draws into stark contrast what he idealises about the shire and the hobbits -

he is not per se preaching a meritocracy in the shire (though you could hardly argue Sam as not being worthy of being mayor as and when he wanted it after ol' Will Whitfooty doodah blokey had had a good run)

but there is all the world of difference in the shire to say the high elves or the Lords of Rohan or of Arnor or Gondor ...

Case closed!

[Nurvingiel]

All the societies in Middle-earth have class systems, they're just different from each other. And Hobbits are way more laid back.

[Earniel]

Frodo’s injuries, of knife, sting, and tooth, are taking their toll on his health. He never complains, but over the years, Sam notices Frodo is very ill certain times of the year, and he often fingers (if you’ll excuse Professor Tolkien’s pun) the white jewel the Lady Galadriel gave him.

Wasn't this the jewel that Arwen gave Frodo?

“No Sam!” said Frodo. “Do not kill him even now. For he has not hurt me. And in any case I do not wish him to be slain in this evil mood. He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him in the hope that he might find it.”

I always wondered whether Frodo's continued insistance that none of the ruffians are killed and that even Saruman is spared after his assassination attempt, stems from his experience with Gollum. He first wished Bilbo had killed him and Gandalf admonished him for it. In the end Gandalf proved right in saying that Gollum still had a part to play, and Gollum's intervention ended up saving Frodo. So clearly Frodo now seems convinced of the idea that everyone can still be redeemed.

1. Why are the Hobbits taking orders from the Chief when they don’t even know who that person is?

The take-over by Saruman from Lotho was rather clever. He got Lotho to start up the whole mess. Lotho, the Hobbits knew well, most of them may not have liked him very much, but he was from a sufficiently respected family and for Hobbits that seemed enough. And Lotho appears to have owned much of the land on which the changes began. It's only when he started doing things outside his legitimate place that people started to complain. And afterwards, when nobody liked Lotho but couldn't do anything for fear of being beaten or locked up, the Chief came over and just filled up the empty shoes at the top.

2. Which scene is your favourite in these chapters, and why? Which is the most poignant? The funniest?

I quite like Sam's quote: "I can add some more if you’d like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to punch his Pimply face, and Thinking you Shirrifs look a lot of Tom-fools."

Spot on.

If another chapter followed The Grey Havens, what would you like it to be about?

Maybe how the other members of the Fellowship got on. There's tidbits in the appendices but there's material enough to fill a nice chapter. But it would also undo some of the impact of Sam's "I'm back" quote.

Why is it Merry, and not Frodo, Sam, or Pippin, who takes charge of military affairs?

Merry always struck me as the most practical of the four and he did spent the most time with the western armies. Pippin was in the royal guard, but I dare say he saw little of the whole battle before Minas Tirith.

Pippin says to Fatty Bolger, after he is released from the Lockholes, that he “would have done better to come with us after all, poor old Fredegar!” Would he have? And how would this have affected the Fellowship?

If I remember correctly, Fatty was not keen to join the four others, the old forest spooked him. He preferred to stay in Crickhollow to keep up appearances. In a way, I think opposing the ruffians and ending up locked up is a more bearable life compared to risking your life on Caradhras, in Moria, in the many battle-fields or in the wastelands of Mordor. Although, I reckon, being not fed enough in prison may be just as terrible for a Hobbit!

2. There are hints at the Hobbit class system in these chapters. (eg. Rise of fame and fortune of the Cottons after the Battle of Bywater.) Did this make them more susceptible to Saruman’s occupation?

Not really. I think the peacefulness and complacency the Hobbits were used to was a more defining factor.

Could any other hobbit or hobbits have raised the Shire against Saruman?

I sort of doubt it. Farmer Cotton may have tried something if matters continued to deteriorate, but I doubt he could have gathered so many Hobbits in so little time and the losses would have been greater. It is also unlikely he could get the ruffians ousted so quickely and completely.

About Saruman's occupation, I always wondered what his motives exactly were. He says he did it to extract some revenge on the Hobbits for the destruction of Isengard, but I dare say that's a later motive. That only comes into play when he himself arrived at Hobbiton and started the random desctruction in earnest.

But he already had set things in motion much earlier, only shortly after Frodo and the three others had left the Shire. Was it a wish to dominate the Hobbits, or was his desire to find out the Ring-bearer among the Hobbits the actual root?

Discuss the technology used in Galadriel's gift - the soil that allowed one grain to increase the trees' growth rate to twenty times the natural rate. This seems to be one of the few technologies Tolkien approves of.

I wouldn't call it a technology, Galadriel's gift is more rooted in natural processes and Elven arts. The technology that Tolkien sees is one of wheels, machineries and chimneys with black smoke. Bio-engineering wasn't part of it yet.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

You bring up a very good point which has never occured to me in all my previous readings ; why in Middle-earth did the hobbits shoot Wormtongue? He did murder Lotho, but the situation plays out as if they aren't really getting revenge for Lotho by shooting Wormtongue.

Aside from the ideas already given, tt could also be that they didn't want an unpredictable and murderous creature just as Wormtongue had proven himself to be, to wander around in the Shire.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Wasn't this the jewel that Arwen gave Frodo?

Editing will now ensue.

Edit: Actually, didn't Galadriel give him that jewel along with the phial?

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I always wondered whether Frodo's continued insistance that none of the ruffians are killed and that even Saruman is spared after his assassination attempt, stems from his experience with Gollum. He first wished Bilbo had killed him and Gandalf admonished him for it. In the end Gandalf proved right in saying that Gollum still had a part to play, and Gollum's intervention ended up saving Frodo. So clearly Frodo now seems convinced of the idea that everyone can still be redeemed.

I completely agree. This emphasises how wise and kind Frodo is.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I quite like Sam's quote: "I can add some more if you’d like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to punch his Pimply face, and Thinking you Shirrifs look a lot of Tom-fools."

Spot on.

Absolutely. Well, you know how much I love that quote. See: signature. I really love Sam.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Maybe how the other members of the Fellowship got on. There's tidbits in the appendices but there's material enough to fill a nice chapter. But it would also undo some of the impact of Sam's "I'm back" quote.

I agree. It would be so cool to see Aragorn rebuilding Gondor or read about Legolas and Gimli's adventures going to the Crystal Caves and Ithilien.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Merry always struck me as the most practical of the four and he did spent the most time with the western armies. Pippin was in the royal guard, but I dare say he saw little of the whole battle before Minas Tirith.

That's probably it. Someone else mentioned he saw more campaigning as well.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

If I remember correctly, Fatty was not keen to join the four others, the old forest spooked him. He preferred to stay in Crickhollow to keep up appearances. In a way, I think opposing the ruffians and ending up locked up is a more bearable life compared to risking your life on Caradhras, in Moria, in the many battle-fields or in the wastelands of Mordor. Although, I reckon, being not fed enough in prison may be just as terrible for a Hobbit!

Quoted for truth.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Not really. I think the peacefulness and complacency the Hobbits were used to was a more defining factor.

Yes. I wonder if after this they will, at the very least, start paying attention to the world outside their own country.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I sort of doubt it. Farmer Cotton may have tried something if matters continued to deteriorate, but I doubt he could have gathered so many Hobbits in so little time and the losses would have been greater. It is also unlikely he could get the ruffians ousted so quickely and completely.

The Tooks seem the most likely possibility, though they didn't operate outside their own lands until Pippin came along. If he had not, maybe eventually they would have started something.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

About Saruman's occupation, I always wondered what his motives exactly were. He says he did it to extract some revenge on the Hobbits for the destruction of Isengard, but I dare say that's a later motive. That only comes into play when he himself arrived at Hobbiton and started the random desctruction in earnest.

But he already had set things in motion much earlier, only shortly after Frodo and the three others had left the Shire. Was it a wish to dominate the Hobbits, or was his desire to find out the Ring-bearer among the Hobbits the actual root?

He had had an interest in the Shire longer than Sauron did. Maybe he had actually been thinking about a take-over for a long time for the purposes of finding the Ring and only when he had become sufficiently mad from the desire for the Ring did he actually do it.

Practically speaking, to find the Ring he should have been looking much earlier (maybe he was?), but Saruman seems like the type who operates in the background and only reveals himself when he's in complete control of the situation. This is what we saw with Saruman's use of Lotho, as you outlined in your post here:

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The take-over by Saruman from Lotho was rather clever. He got Lotho to start up the whole mess. Lotho, the Hobbits knew well, most of them may not have liked him very much, but he was from a sufficiently respected family and for Hobbits that seemed enough. And Lotho appears to have owned much of the land on which the changes began. It's only when he started doing things outside his legitimate place that people started to complain. And afterwards, when nobody liked Lotho but couldn't do anything for fear of being beaten or locked up, the Chief came over and just filled up the empty shoes at the top.

But Saruman was in a difficult situation. If he had moved openly on the Shire while Sauron was still powerful, he would have attracted his attention. If he waits too long, as he did, then the Ring is already gone.

Saruman must have known that the Ring was no longer in the Shire at the time he invaded. I just can't imagine him being that short of intelligence for an invasion - not a strategic and clever guy like him.

So finding the Ring probably wasn't his goal. Revenge is more likely, especially when you think that Saruman is a bit of a coward, or at least he doesn't like to get his hands dirty. It was the Ents that really trashed his home; Merry and Pippin were just the catalyst. But it's easier to get revenge on complacent Hobbits than on beings who can tear apart stone as though it's loves of bread.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I wouldn't call it a technology, Galadriel's gift is more rooted in natural processes and Elven arts. The technology that Tolkien sees is one of wheels, machineries and chimneys with black smoke. Bio-engineering wasn't part of it yet.

I suppose, but I would quibble that it still is technology, just not as Tolkien might define it.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Aside from the ideas already given, tt could also be that they didn't want an unpredictable and murderous creature just as Wormtongue had proven himself to be, to wander around in the Shire.

A good point, but why not capture him?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Editing will now ensue.

Edit: Actually, didn't Galadriel give him that jewel along with the phial?

No, Galadriel only gave him the phial in Lórien, I just checked that chapter. So I'm pretty sure it must be the jewel he received from Arwen in Minas Tirith.

Absolutely. Well, you know how much I love that quote. See: signature. I really love Sam.

Sam's a really lovable character.

I agree. It would be so cool to see Aragorn rebuilding Gondor or read about Legolas and Gimli's adventures going to the Crystal Caves and Ithilien.

Agreed. The Crystal Caves especially sound interesting and Gimli's poetic description on augments the curiosity.

Yes. I wonder if after this they will, at the very least, start paying attention to the world outside their own country.

Some at least, I reckon, now that there's peace. I assume it will be mostly Gondor and Rohan under influence of Merry and Pippin. But I don't see too many Hobbits adventuring out of their cosy Shire. Interest in foreign literature they'll undoubtedly have, but it takes much to pry a Hobbit physically from the Shire.

The Tooks seem the most likely possibility, though they didn't operate outside their own lands until Pippin came along. If he had not, maybe eventually they would have started something.

They seemed content enough to stick to keeping the ruffians out of their own land. And they were surrounded, I believe, well... not surrounded enough to keep Pippin from getting a 100 Tooks in the battle of Bywater, but it appears the Tooks were isolated enough from the rest of the Shire to cut communications, and so planning.

Practically speaking, to find the Ring he should have been looking much earlier (maybe he was?), but Saruman seems like the type who operates in the background and only reveals himself when he's in complete control of the situation. This is what we saw with Saruman's use of Lotho, as you outlined in your post here:

He must have had spies in the Shire before Frodo left. There must have been at least some years that he was importing pipe weed before scaling up his intrusion in the Shire. I reckon it took a few years as well to get a sufficuent influence on Lotho to have him start up the invasion from the inside.

I realise there may be a third motive that I hadn't considered before. Saruman knew Gandalf had much interest in the Hobbit realm, therefore Saruman may also have been motivated in finding out what Gandalf was up too. The later take-over and destruction of the Shire could also have been a means to hurt Gandalf since Saruman knew Gandalf had a soft spot for the Shire.

Saruman must have been sorely disappointed to find out only the Hobbits had come to oust him, and that Gandalf had bailed out. If Gandalf knew that Saruman had been busy in the Shire (he certainly knew of the new Buckland gate) then there's a possibility he not only went to Tom Bombadil to give the Hobbits the chance to stand on their own legs, but he might not have wanted to give Saruman the satisfaction of showing him what destruction the fallen wizard could still wreak.

But Saruman was in a difficult situation. If he had moved openly on the Shire while Sauron was still powerful, he would have attracted his attention. If he waits too long, as he did, then the Ring is already gone.

Good point, I hadn't even thought about that yet. Sauron would have demanded a few explanations for Saruman's sudden interest in the Shire, had he known of it. And the moment the Ring had left the Shire, Sauron would have lost interest in it and Saruman could move in openly. If he couldn't get the Ring in the Shire, at least he could take over the place uninterrupted.

A good point, but why not capture him?

They might not have risked it? It takes only a part of a second to release a bow and an arrow can't be recalled.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

No, Galadriel only gave him the phial in Lórien, I just checked that chapter. So I'm pretty sure it must be the jewel he received from Arwen in Minas Tirith.

Will now edit.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Sam's a really lovable character.

Didn't someone post a quote from Tolkien's letters saying he based his character on the (typical?) British soldier, from his experience in WWI?

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Agreed. The Crystal Caves especially sound interesting and Gimli's poetic description on augments the curiosity.

But I guess it wouldn't be any fun if he had told us every single detail. Something has to be left up to the imagination!

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Some at least, I reckon, now that there's peace. I assume it will be mostly Gondor and Rohan under influence of Merry and Pippin. But I don't see too many Hobbits adventuring out of their cosy Shire. Interest in foreign literature they'll undoubtedly have, but it takes much to pry a Hobbit physically from the Shire.

Haha, as long as they start paying attention to foreign news that will certainly help them. Maybe there will be a Hobbit newspaper, with an adventurous guy like Robin Smallburrow as the foreign correspondent.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

They seemed content enough to stick to keeping the ruffians out of their own land. And they were surrounded, I believe, well... not surrounded enough to keep Pippin from getting a 100 Tooks in the battle of Bywater, but it appears the Tooks were isolated enough from the rest of the Shire to cut communications, and so planning.

Eventually they would have had to do something, if only to secure supplies of pipe-weed and ale.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

He must have had spies in the Shire before Frodo left. There must have been at least some years that he was importing pipe weed before scaling up his intrusion in the Shire. I reckon it took a few years as well to get a sufficuent influence on Lotho to have him start up the invasion from the inside.

True. Maybe he was looking for the Ring covertly, and just never found it. Good thing Merry and Pippin weren't his spies, since they figured it out ages ago.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I realise there may be a third motive that I hadn't considered before. Saruman knew Gandalf had much interest in the Hobbit realm, therefore Saruman may also have been motivated in finding out what Gandalf was up too. The later take-over and destruction of the Shire could also have been a means to hurt Gandalf since Saruman knew Gandalf had a soft spot for the Shire.

Now that you mention it, that seems like an excellent motivation. He regarded Radagast as silly (unfairly, IMO) and Gandalf as his rival.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Saruman must have been sorely disappointed to find out only the Hobbits had come to oust him, and that Gandalf had bailed out. If Gandalf knew that Saruman had been busy in the Shire (he certainly knew of the new Buckland gate) then there's a possibility he not only went to Tom Bombadil to give the Hobbits the chance to stand on their own legs, but he might not have wanted to give Saruman the satisfaction of showing him what destruction the fallen wizard could still wreak.

I bet Gandalf also had the confidence in the four Travellers that they would sort Saruman out.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Good point, I hadn't even thought about that yet. Sauron would have demanded a few explanations for Saruman's sudden interest in the Shire, had he known of it. And the moment the Ring had left the Shire, Sauron would have lost interest in it and Saruman could move in openly. If he couldn't get the Ring in the Shire, at least he could take over the place uninterrupted.

Which makes sense now that we realise he really wanted to spite Gandalf, and probably the Hobbits, just because.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

They might not have risked it? It takes only a part of a second to release a bow and an arrow can't be recalled.

Had those four Hobbits not fired, they probably would have captured Grima. But those guys were probably really keyed up from the battle. I just can't imagine a Hobbit killing someone vengefully. Not even a jerk like Ted Sandyman. I wonder what became of that guy anyway?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

But I guess it wouldn't be any fun if he had told us every single detail. Something has to be left up to the imagination!

True, too true. Too much information can spoil a thing, but hints keep you curiousity.

Haha, as long as they start paying attention to foreign news that will certainly help them. Maybe there will be a Hobbit newspaper, with an adventurous guy like Robin Smallburrow as the foreign correspondent.

Hahah! Although I reckon they would have been mostly be interested in foreign history, I can't quite imagine many hobbits taking an interest in contempory foreign events, it just doesn't quite sound like them.

Eventually they would have had to do something, if only to secure supplies of pipe-weed and ale.

Good point, their stores wouldn't have lasted forever.

True. Maybe he was looking for the Ring covertly, and just never found it. Good thing Merry and Pippin weren't his spies, since they figured it out ages ago.

Yes, but it is surprising how close Saruman got anyway. Lotho was near enough family. You'd almost think Saruman knew the significance of the name Baggins, but I doubt Sauron ever relayed Gollum's words.

The only set-back for Saruman was that both Bilbo and Frodo didn't get along with that branch of the family in the first place. Otherwise things might have happened quite differently.

I bet Gandalf also had the confidence in the four Travellers that they would sort Saruman out.

I agree. I don't think Gandalf would have let them go alone if he didn't have confidence in their ability to handle this on their own.

Had those four Hobbits not fired, they probably would have captured Grima. But those guys were probably really keyed up from the battle. I just can't imagine a Hobbit killing someone vengefully. Not even a jerk like Ted Sandyman. I wonder what became of that guy anyway?

Pester someone hard enough and he'll break at one point, and the Hobbits were pestered for quite a while. It's natural for them for wanting to hurt their oppressors, even if this was out of their normal character. If Frodo hadn't been constantly reminding them not to kill their enemies if they could avoid it, things might have gotten far uglier.

I reckon Ted probably lay low for a while afterwards. His reputation might have gotten a serious beating, but I doubt the Hobbits would have laid a finger on him.