Book V, ch. 7 & 8: The Pyre of Denethor and The Houses of Healing

[Landroval]

The 7th chapter begins after a quite dramatic moment: the chief nazgul, confronted by Gandalf at the city gates, departs at the moment of the attack of the Rohirrim. Just when Gandalf is about to pursue the witch-king, he is stopped by Pippin, in order to save Faramir.

On the way to the house of the dead, Gandalf appoints Imrahil as leader of the city and arrives barely in time to prevent more blood-shedding: Denethor, driven by madness and despair, is about to cast himself and his son into fire. Gandalf makes a most poignant remark:

- Work of the Enemy! said Gandalf. Such deeds he loves: friend at war with friend; loyalty divided in confusion of hearts.

Denethor claims that he has the right to issue commands in his city, but Gandalf argues that such commands can be disobeyed, when the will has been turned to madness and evil. The wizard makes a impressive show of force, by taking away the steward's sword, and leaping on top of the wood-pile to save Faramir.

At that moment, Faramir speaks for the first time, and calls his father - an event which almost wakes up Denethor from his madness. Once again, Gandalf challenges his authority, claiming that he cannot keep his son, nor take away his life, in the manner of heathen kings of old.

The gondorian ruler reveals his hidden artefact, the palantir; unfortunately, he resorted to using it. Although strong enough to resist corruption, he was driven to despair by the things he saw, unknowing that the palantir only showed the things Sauron allowed. Thus, he sees the fleet of Umbar about to enter the battle of the Pellenor fields, but he doesn't know that Aragorn is leading it. What Denethor chooses is death when confronted with utter despair.

With the help of two of his guards, the steward sets himself alight, holding the palantir in his hand. Gandalf hears the deathcry of the nazgul king.

There are some rather poetic moments that are worth noting: the fall of the dome of the house of the dead, underlining Gandalf's words that an age has ended; the grey rain at the end of the chapter, which quenches the fires, almost cleansing the hurts of the day.

The thing I have most trouble with is Gandalf turning back from the battlefield; considering just the losses:

There Theoden fell, Thengling mighty,high lord of the host.
Harding and Guthlaf, Dunhere and Deorwine, doughty Grimbold,
Herefara and Herubrand, Horn and Fastred,
fought and fell there in a far country
Neither Hirluin the Fair to the hills by the sea,
nor Forlong the old to the flowering vales
ever, to Arnach, to his own country
returned in triumph; nor the tall bowmen,
Derufin and Duilin, to their dark waters

it was a terrible price to pay.
1) Do you agree with Gandalf's choice to turn back, to save Faramir, even though he acknowledges himself that many will die? What do you think motivated his choice?

2) Does Gandalf have the right to appoint Imrahil as ruler of the city? Would Imrahil had taken this decision himself, if he knew what happened to Denethor?

3)Does the divided loyalty of the guards remind you of the curse of the noldor? Is it a valid comparison?

4)Denethor has a rather pure numenorean blood; doesn't he still have the right to end his life when he so wishes, even if he can't do it through willpower alone?

5)The steward knows of Aragorn and of Gandalf's plan concerning him - most likely through the use of his palantir. Did he found out about this sooner or later than Sauron did?

6)Denethor is unwilling to relinquish his rule of the city to an heir of Isildur and wishes that the stewardship continues; doesn't this contradict his statement, quoted by Boromir in The window of the west, TTT, that "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice" for a steward to become king?

7)Why is Gandalf forced to stay?

8)What greater sorrow may yet come to pass?

9)If Denethor knew of the incoming Umbar fleet, it is most likely that Sauron did too, and in more exact/realistic terms; why wasn't the host of Mordor more prepared to meet Aragorns' attack, seeing that Sauron and the nazgul can communicate rather instantly?

[Landroval]

In a rather stark contrast to the previous chapter, concerned with the house of the dead, this chapter deals with the events surrounding the houses of healing. The body of king Theoden is brought in great honor, covered with golden cloth, and later put in the Hall of the Tower, surrounded by twelve torches and twelve knights, of both Gondor and Rohan; as Aragorn notes, "he rose out of the shadows to a last fair morning".

Together with the fallen king is brought the body of Eowyn, still alive, and of Merry, who starts to feel the effects of his attack on the witch-king; he loses his way, and is found by Pippin, and later Gandalf, and brought to the houses of healing. As the wizard rightfully notes, his trust in the hobbit was repaid and he should have been brought in honor into the city, for his deeds.

A rather interesting character enters stage: Ioreth, eldest of the healing women; quite amusingly, she reffers to a past time, when "no king could ask for [a] better" lass than her . She is instrumental in revealing Aragorn's healing power and the use of the kingsfoil (athelas), a powerful healing plant; I must say I rather enjoyed these rhymes:

When the black breath blows
and death's shadow grows
and all lights pass,
come athelas! come athelas!
Life to the dying
In the king's hand lying!

Gandalf sends for Aragorn, and later enters the house of healing. At the door, he is met by Pippin, who calls him Strider. Interestingly enough, he reveals that his future house, if there shall be one, should bare that name in the high tongue, Telcontar. He manages to bring back all the three warriors affected by the black breath: Faramir, Eowyn and Merry.

As he uses the athelas, a rather strange wind is felt:

[A]keen wind blew through the window, and it bore no scent, but was an air wholly fresh and clean and young, as if it had not before been breathed by any living thing and came new-made from snowy mountains high beneath a dome of stars, or from shores of silver far away washed by seas of foam.

Elven shores? Taniquetil anyone?
Also, rather amusing is the the herbmaster incident; a man of shallow knowledge and of too much pride:

- Then in the name of the king, go and find some old man of less lore and more wisdom who keeps some in his house! cried Gandalf.
...
- If your pack has not been found, then you must send for the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but that it is called _westmansweed_ by the vulgar, and _galenas_ by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned, and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history of tongues.

I must say I mostly liked the hobbit conversation, where they confess that "we can't live long on the heights" - which reminds me of letter #181: "the main narrative... which is planned to be 'hobbito-centric', that is, primarily a study of the ennoblement (or sanctification) of the humble."
10) Did the Gondorians atempt to cure age? If so, did this accelerate the dimminishing of their lives (the clinging to life also dimminished the lifelenght of the numenoreans, albeit in a different context)?
11)How come Aragorn calls Elrond "the eldest of our race"?
12)Did it puzzle you the way Faramir recognized Aragorn as his king?
13)How much do you think Aragorn's kiss mattered in waking Eowyn up?
14)Do Gandalf's words:

My friend, said Gandalf, you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.

imply a patriarchical rohirrimic society, oppressing women rights (through our current worldview)?
15)Do you think Aragorn's words are an exageration:

Few other griefs amid the ill chances of this world have more bitterness and shame for a man's heart than to behold the love of a lady so fair and brave that cannot be returned

or is Tolkien just plainly romantic here?
16)Dark voices speak to Eowyn in her black dreams; is she coming under Sauron's power, the way a power-ring bearer would?
17)Considering Aragorn's words about Merry, do you think that the (chief) meaning of grief into this world is to bring about wisdom?

[Valandil]

Wow - great start Landroval! And thanks again for covering this for us.

[Landroval]

Thanks Valandil - the pleasure was mine .

[Serenoli]

Val is right... excellent summary, and on such short notice, too. I'll try some of those questions, now:

Originally Posted by Landroval

The thing I have most trouble with is Gandalf turning back from the battlefield; considering just the losses:
it was a terrible price to pay.
1) Do you agree with Gandalf's choice to turn back, to save Faramir, even though he acknowledges himself that many will die? What do you think motivated his choice?

This is a tough question, and of course, he could not predict the results of his action right then. But, Gandalf did not just turn back only to save Faramir. He returned to bring order back into a city thrown into chaos by the madness of Denethor. If he had NOT returned, the consequences of Denethor's action, by plunging the Gondorians into despair similar to what he felt, might have secured their defeat.

And, he left, just when the Rohirrim came, so that he was not needed in the battle immediately. A battle will always yield casualties, and it is debatable, just how many of those deaths can be imputed to Gandalf's decision to go back. The most direct result of Gandalf not fighting the Morgul Lord was IMO Theoden's death at the hands of the Witch-King, but then, the destruction of the ML at Eowyn's hands can also be imputed, however indirectly, to Gandalf turning back.

For Eowyn, his action has a more ironic effect... it deprives her of a father, but supplies her with a husband!

2) Does Gandalf have the right to appoint Imrahil as ruler of the city? Would Imrahil had taken this decision himself, if he knew what happened to Denethor?

In such a time of necessity, someone had to make the decisions, and he was the logical choice. No idea what Imrahil would do, have to read that bit again...

4)Denethor has a rather pure numenorean blood; doesn't he still have the right to end his life when he so wishes, even if he can't do it through willpower alone?

Maybe thats why he did get to kill himself in the end. IIRC, Gandalf contested mostly what right he had to end Faramir's life.

6)Denethor is unwilling to relinquish his rule of the city to an heir of Isildur and wishes that the stewardship continues; doesn't this contradict his statement, quoted by Boromir in The window of the west, TTT, that "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice" for a steward to become king?

Very much so, but Denethor is a man of contradictions. Classic example would be his treatment of Faramir when alive versus when believed dead.

As long as there was no ACTUAL threat of a king popping up, he was content to be steward, and careful to check his sons' ambition, but with Aragorn on the scene, his feelings changed. Also, when he told Boromir "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice" for a steward to become king"... that may have been before he had used the palantir. Sauron's effect for evil on those near him, may account for this change in Denethor's ambitions.

[Gordis]

Very good work, Landroval. My compliments!

Before i start answering your questions I have one myself:

Work of the Enemy! said Gandalf. Such deeds he loves: friend at war with friend; loyalty divided in confusion of hearts.

Do you think Gandalf refers to some particular historical events here? Which ones?


1) Do you agree with Gandalf's choice to turn back, to save Faramir, even though he acknowledges himself that many will die? What do you think motivated his choice?

I agree with Serenoli. Not all deaths can be blamed on Gandalf's absence. Even Theoden's. If the Witch-King left his horse and summoned his Fell Beast almost immediately after leaving the Gate, Gandalf wouldn't have been able to catch him anyway.
As for Gandalf's motivation, he said himself "Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him."

2) Does Gandalf have the right to appoint Imrahil as ruler of the city? Would Imrahil had taken this decision himself, if he knew what happened to Denethor?
I believe so. I think Imrahil was next in command after Denethor and his sons. In any army it is generally very well known who takes precedence in the line of command. Gondoreans were a war-like people.

3)Does the divided loyalty of the guards remind you of the curse of the noldor? Is it a valid comparison? I think not...Hmm... Or you mean the kin-strife in Alqualonde? Anyway, I never thought of it.

4)Denethor has a rather pure numenorean blood; doesn't he still have the right to end his life when he so wishes, even if he can't do it through willpower alone?
Again I agree with Serenoli. Gandalf didn't question Denethor's right to die. Moreover, it suited his own plans perfectly.
Also only the manner of death (by fire) that Denethor had chosen was "heathen", not the suicide itself.

We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West.

5)The steward knows of Aragorn and of Gandalf's plan concerning him - most likely through the use of his palantir. Did he found out about this sooner or later than Sauron did?
IMHO, much sooner, at the time when Aragorn was in Gondor as Thorongil. And he became quite sure after he questioned Pippin.
Also if he watched the Fellowship through the Palantir, he might have recognised the leader - as Thorongil he knew and suspected.
But here there is a problem. If he followed the progress of the Fellowship, how come Sauron was not aware of it as well, it seems he knew what Denethor was looking at, if he could even select the images for him? How could he miss Frodo?

6)Denethor is unwilling to relinquish his rule of the city to an heir of Isildur and wishes that the stewardship continues; doesn't this contradict his statement, quoted by Boromir in The window of the west, TTT, that "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice" for a steward to become king?
He also says

"I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.’

No one in Gondor since the dispute about Arvedui's claim to the throne was going to bow to a descendant of Isildur.
Remaining Stewards to an absent King, they kept their authority unchallenged for a thousand years. Had they choosen to claim the crown, then there would be strife in Gondor, as not only the Stewards, but others in Gondor had Anarion's blood in their veins, though they were not his father-to son descendants.
I think Mardil the Good Steward was not too eager to stop the King Earnur from going to the Morgul Vale, neither did he try to learn of his fate afterwards. He could have offered ransom, or sent the army to rescue the King. Just think on it: If nowadays a king, or a president, gets kidnapped in this way, wouldn't there be a general outcry and a war with the offenders? But nothing like that happened, instead there was the Watchful PEACE with Minas Morgul. No, the absence of the King suited Mardil and all the Stewards after him perfectly.

7)Why is Gandalf forced to stay?
8)What greater sorrow may yet come to pass?

It is a bit unclear, but I think you refer to this quote:

Alas! then I have guessed rightly,’ said Gandalf. ‘Thus the will of Sauron entered into Minas Tirith; and thus I have been delayed here. And here I shall still be forced to remain, for I shall soon have other charges, not Faramir only.
‘Now I must go down to meet those who come. I have seen a sight upon the field that is very grievous to my heart, and greater sorrow may yet come to pass.

Gandalf has seen the fall of the Witch-King and Eowyn and Theoden and is now waiting for the causalities to be brought in, I believe. He also knows that wounding a nazgul causes a severe case of "Black Shadow" and he is not sure he can cope with this affliction without Aragorn. That is how I read it.
(And those who have read my thread : Tolkien's changing conceptions of the Nazgul and the Istari, might see here not only Gandalf's grief for Eowyn and Theoden, but also for the Wizard (Witch) King, who at this point in the writing of the story had been depicted as Gandalf's former companion and the head of his order, taken by evil).

9)If Denethor knew of the incoming Umbar fleet, it is most likely that Sauron did too, and in more exact/realistic terms; why wasn't the host of Mordor more prepared to meet Aragorns' attack, seeing that Sauron and the nazgul can communicate rather instantly?
Because neither Denethor, not Sauron knew that the Umbar ships had been hijacked by Aragorn. The arrival of the corsairs was planned, so Sauron didn't look too close - he had plenty of other things to look at.

10) Did the Gondorians atempt to cure age? If so, did this accelerate the diminishing of their lives (the clinging to life also diminished the lifelenght of the numenoreans, albeit in a different context)?
I think the clinging to life and the diminishing of the lifespan are related, both being manifestations of the Shadow on the people.

11)How come Aragorn calls Elrond "the eldest of our race"?
Elrond is the brother of Elros, the first King of Numenor..

12)Did it puzzle you the way Faramir recognized Aragorn as his king?
I think he was prepared to his coming by Frodo and Sam's revelations.
I also believe that Faramir's soul, affected by Black Shadow, wandered in the Shadow-word much as Frodo's after his Morgul wound. It seems that in this world the people's fëar walk undisguised: the nazgul are plain to see, Glorfindel shines and Aragorn looks unmistakably the King. That's how Sauron recognised what he was during their Palantir session. (On the other hand, if I am right, why didn't the nazgul recognise Aragorn as King at Weathertop? Or did they, but kept the info to themselves?)

13)How much do you think Aragorn's kiss mattered in waking Eowyn up?
Ahem...

14)Do Gandalf's words: (...) imply a patriarchical rohirrimic society, oppressing women rights (through our current worldview)?
I don't think the current worldview is applicable here. Gondoreans or High Numenoreans never sent women to war, and for good reason. Medieval warfare was mostly based on brutal strength. Fighters were hacking each other with heavy swords. Fencing, as such, was invented when?- 18-th century, I believe. A women, no matter how well trained, could never match a man.

[Olmer]

...he is stopped by Merry, in order to save Faramir.

And then Merry run back to assist and save Eowyn. Anywhere you turn - he is already there!! Just kidding...

1) Do you agree with Gandalf's choice to turn back, to save Faramir, even though he acknowledges himself that many will die? What do you think motivated his choice?

Faramir is Gandalf’s guarantee of the bloodless take-over for the new ruler of Gondor . In Gandalf’s scheme for coupe d’etat Faramir , son of the ruler of Gondor, warrier with an unblemished reputation , who was loved and highly respected by his countrymen, and who, also, was a such loyal and obedient pupil of the Grey Wizard, had to represent the will of the people of Gondor and without any arguments to pass the right to rule the kingdon to chosen nominee .This was his only motivation to save Faramir.

2) Does Gandalf have the right to appoint Imrahil as ruler of the city?

He has no authority on this matter, but nevertheless this is his show and he is directing it as he sees it right.
I don't think that if Aragorn would be "out of picture" the Elves and the Wizard would wholeheartedly accepted the new ruler Inrahil. He was just a temporary fill-in.

The steward knows of Aragorn and of Gandalf's plan concerning him - most likely through the use of his palantir. Did he found out about this sooner or later than Sauron did?

I think, that he found out back in the time of his father's ruling who Aragorn really is . By that time Aragorn by popularity was one notch lower than Ectelion and he was expected by men to return to Minas-Tirith, where great honour awaited him..., but instead he just went whence he came from.....to all men it seemed a loss, unless it were to Denethor" Why? Because Denethor realized that he will be the last steward of Gondor. May be Thorongil in some subtle way revealed his ancestry, but Ecthelion in the same subtle way let him know that to claim the throne of Gondor you need to have more substantial proves, not just a heresay. Maybe this is the reason that Aragorn decided to return back North, promising upon his departure "I come again to Gondor" ("And this time I'll be prepared!")

6)Denethor is unwilling to relinquish his rule of the city to an heir of Isildur and wishes that the stewardship continues; doesn't this contradict his statement, quoted by Boromir in The window of the west, TTT, that "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice" for a steward to become king?

No. It does not. Because he knew that the claimant to the crown is somewhere there. It's only the matter of time. But he did not like to be the one undermined by the shady scheming of the Elves and Wizard, and this why he sees Aragorn as "long bereft of dignity".

12)Did it puzzle you the way Faramir recognized Aragorn as his king?

He was long prepared for his coming by his teacher - Gandalf.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Faramir is Gandalf’s guarantee of the bloodless take-over for the new ruler of Gondor . In Gandalf’s scheme for coupe d’etat Faramir , son of the ruler of Gondor, warrier with an unblemished reputation , who was loved and highly respected by his countrymen, and who, also, was a such loyal and obedient pupil of the Grey Wizard, had to represent the will of the people of Gondor and without any arguments to pass the right to rule the kingdon to chosen nominee .This was his only motivation to save Faramir.

There is something here, indeed, Olmer. Why would the busy Mithrandir remain for a long time in Minas Tirith, where he is not much liked by Denethor, and take care of his son's education?

And it was right after the time Thorongil left Gondor in 2980, understanding that Denethor would never surrender the rule to him willingly. Boromir was born in 2978, Faramir in 2984. It seems Aragorn told his friend Gandalf about the Steward's attitude, and the wizard hurried to Minas Tirith himself, to try to influence the next generation of the Stewards. He failed with Boromir, it seems, but succeeded with Faramir.
Very probably in Mithrandir's schemes Boromir had to disappear anyway. It was luck that he was killed by orcs...

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

It was luck that he was killed by orcs...

Yeah, he was as valiant and loved by people as a new ruler could be, he would have had the support of the army, leveraged by support of the regent and backed up by his younger brother, the second in the lead. Aragorn very well knew that he would have a tough time to compete with Boromir, this is why, while Boromir was around, he have never called himself "the heir of the throne", just one of the guys.
But when Boromir was gone, all modesty aside, he inagurated himself with the full title, missing nothing: "I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and I am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dunadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor".

[Gordis]

Yes you are right.
And it seems Boromir would have never accepted Aragorn, no more than Denethor.
That's what Faramir says of his brother:

'It does,' said Frodo. `Yet always he treated Aragorn with honour.'
'I doubt it not,' said Faramir. `If he were satisfied of Aragorn's claim as you say, he would greatly reverence him. But the pinch has not yet come. They had not yet reached Minas Tirith or become rivals in her wars.

I wonder did Gandalf foresee Boromir's and Denethor's end or had he something planned for them if they survived?

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I wonder did Gandalf foresee Boromir's and Denethor's end or had he something planned for them if they survived?

Interesting thought.

If Gandalf planned anything for Boromir or Denethor, I do not think he would have harmed them directly. (IMHO)

I think he would have tried to convince them (or provide proper proofs) that the true king has returned.

If Boromir and/or Denethor refused to accept the return of the king I am not sure what (if anything) Gandalf would have done. It is possible that Gandalf would let the people of Gondor resolve their own problems once the ring was destroyed.

[Landroval]

IIRC, Gandalf contested mostly what right he had to end Faramir's life.

I think he was reffering to Denethor in particular:

- Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death, answered Gandalf.

Do you think Gandalf refers to some particular historical events here? Which ones?

The same label, "confusion of loyalties", is used in the Shiboleth of Feanor in Late writings, HoME XII, in refference to the exile of the noldor; a similar situation arose when the sons of Feanor attacked the Havens to seize the Silmaril - and when their own subjects disobeyed them and helped Elwing.

The arrival of the corsairs was planned, so Sauron didn't look too close - he had plenty of other things to look at.

Hm, debatable; some of the enemies escaped towards south. Could that have escaped the watch of Sauron or of his spies?

May be Thorongil in some subtle way revealed his ancestry, but Ecthelion in the same subtle way let him know that to claim the throne of Gondor you need to have more substantial proves, not just a heresay. Maybe this is the reason that Aragorn decided to return back North, promising upon his departure "I come again to Gondor"

I doubt this was the case, seeing how Echtelion loved him above all, listened to him in most matters, and would have welcomed him with even greater honour after Aragorn's attack on Umbar. As he says in the Houses of Healing, he won't claim kingship unless Sauron is defeated.

It seems Aragorn told his friend Gandalf about the Steward's attitude, and the wizard hurried to Minas Tirith himself, to try to influence the next generation of the Stewards. He failed with Boromir, it seems, but succeeded with Faramir.

Gandalf's chief concern was the the ancient Gondor lore, and he took little time to teach others; of all the noble souls sent help Middle-Earth, Tolkien says he is the only one to have passed the moral test. I doubt he would have resorted to manipulating, coups d'etat, getting persons dissappered and so on.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

The same label, "confusion of loyalties", is used in the Shiboleth of Feanor in Late writings, HoME XII, in refference to the exile of the noldor; a similar situation arose when the sons of Feanor attacked the Havens to seize the Silmaril - and when their own subjects disobeyed them and helped Elwing.

Neither of these events could be blamed on Sauron. More likely it was the old story of Celebrimbor quarrelling with Galadriel and Gil-Galad, or the division and strife in Arnor in the Third Age.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The arrival of the corsairs was planned, so Sauron didn't look too close - he had plenty of other things to look at.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Hm, debatable; some of the enemies escaped towards south. Could that have escaped the watch of Sauron or of his spies?

I think Aragorn and K escaped detection on the Paths of the Dead and then on their ride through Western Gondor. At least it seems evident that the arrival of Aragorn was a big surprise for the Mordor Army.

The Rohirrim indeed had no need of news or alarm. All too well they could see for themselves the black sails [...] But the hosts of Mordor were enheartened, and filled with a new lust and fury they came yelling to the onset. Thus came Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elessar, Isildur’s heir, out of the Paths of the Dead, borne upon a wind from the Sea to the kingdom of Gondor; and the mirth of the Rohirrim was a torrent of laughter and a flashing of swords, and the joy and wonder of the City was a music of trumpets and a ringing of bells. But the hosts of Mordor were seized with bewilderment, and a great wizardry it seemed to them that their own ships should be filled with their foes; and a black dread fell on them, knowing that the tides of fate had turned against them and their doom was at hand.

Did Denethor know who was arriving on the Black Ships? - no he didn't, for he says to Gandalf:

‘Pride and despair!’ he cried. ‘Didst thou think that the eyes of the White Tower were blind? Nay, I have seen more than thou knowest, Grey Fool. For thy hope is but ignorance. Go then and labour in healing! Go forth and fight! Vanity. For a little space you may triumph on the field, for a day. But against the Power that now arises there is no victory. To this City only the first finger of its hand has yet been stretched. All the East is moving. And even now the wind of thy hope cheats thee and wafts up Anduin a fleet with black sails. The West has failed. It is time for all to depart who would not be slaves.’
.

Originally Posted by Landroval

I doubt this was the case, seeing how Ecthelion loved him above all, listened to him in most matters, and would have welcomed him with even greater honour after Aragorn's attack on Umbar. As he says in the Houses of Healing, he won't claim kingship unless Sauron is defeated.

Ecthelion may have loved Thorongil, but he would have hardly surrendered the rule of Gondor to him. And even had he, Denethor would be violently opposed to this decision, which may have led to civil war in Gondor. And when Aragorn left Gondor, in 2980, Ecthelion was nearing his death (2984) and the opinion of Denethor meant a lot.

At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master, though indeed Thorongil had never himself vied with Denethor, nor held himself higher than the servant of his father. And in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Gandalf's chief concern was the ancient Gondor lore, and he took little time to teach others; of all the noble souls sent help Middle-Earth, Tolkien says he is the only one to have passed the moral test. I doubt he would have resorted to manipulating, coups d'etat, getting persons dissappered and so on.

But he did teach Faramir, didn't he? Now, about the lore: Gandalf went to search for Isildur's notes in 3017 and didn't stay for long:

With that thought, I forsook the chase, and passed swiftly to Gondor. In former days the members of my order had been well received there, but Saruman most of all. Often he had been for long the guest of the Lords of the City. Less welcome did the Lord Denethor show me then than of old, and grudgingly he permitted me to search among his hoarded scrolls and books.
' "If indeed you look only, as you say, for records of ancient days, and the beginnings of the City, read on! " he said. "For to me what was is less dark than what is to come, and that is my care. But unless you have more skill even than Saruman, who has studied here long, you will find naught that is not well known to me, who am master of the lore of this City.

.So, did Gandalf work in the Gondor libraries before that? It doesn't seem he was a regular there, not like Saruman. I think it was only a pretext, the real goal was to influence the Steward's children.

He DID prepare the Coup-d'etat - yes, for the universal Good, but still...
Making persons disappear - perhaps he didn't need to? He had Fate working for him, like the Ring finding Bilbo and Gollum biting off Frodo's finger, and Boromir being killed by orcs. Perhaps he had the foreknowledge of these events - so why bother?

[Olmer]

But against the Power that now arises there is no victory. To this City only the first finger of its hand has yet been stretched. All the East is moving. And even now the wind of thy hope cheats thee and wafts up Anduin a fleet with black sails. The West has failed. It is time for all to depart who would not be slaves.’

.

As Gandalf said, the palantirs don’t lie. Denethor was not mad, he “saw great forces arrayed against him in Mordor, and more still being gathered, he saw that which truly is” (RotK.”The last debate“) He was realistic, as Gandalf had to admit later . Denethor, as an experienced warrior, saw that the odds are not on Gondor’s side.
(Indeed, the victory on the Pelennor field was not a decisive event for Gondor, and to march after that with what was left of the army of the West to the gates of Morannon, where were stationed ready and able the fresh forces of Mordor, was equivalent to the mass suicide commitmemt. They were saved by miracle, which was nobody expected to happen.)
This is why he tells Gandalf that the wind, which is carrying up a fleet , won’t bring the hopes he is counting on.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I wonder did Gandalf foresee Boromir's and Denethor's end or had he something planned for them if they survived?

Of course, spending every evening gaizing into Palantir, Denethor knew who is arriving on the ships of Umbar. After all on these ships was the best source of communication - Orthanc’s palantir. Since Aragorn was surprisingly well updated about the current state of Minas Tirith , I think that he looked into it not once. The last time it was when “the fleet set forth” up Anduin, and when he urgently said, that “to the Harlond we must come tomorrow or fail utterly.”
So, Denethor knew that Aragorn’s coming was invetable and such opposition, as he, wouldn’t be spared by the new ruler. Most probably he and others, who will support him, would be quietly eliminated, or sent as far away from the capital, as it possible, “rehabilitating the lost territory” (Letter #244)on the borders of ever hostile Harad in the “main eastward outposts” of the Ithilien, as it happened even with so loyal Faramir. Shortly, to stay in the places with a highest probability to get killed.

Denethor was a brilliant reader of characters and saw plane and clear Gandalf’s ambitious game and his role in this game, and, as man of honour, he did not want to be a part of it, nor he wanted for his son to lead“the life diminished”, “love halved” and “honour abated”.
I’am sure that playing a host for all five wizards and being on very friendly terms with Saruman, Denethor guessed of the true nature and of the immense power of the Grey Wizard.
He set ablaze himself not because he lost all hopes for the victory. Indeed, he is SURE that with Gandalf’s help the victory of Gondor is imminent , otherwise he would not be talking about living with honour abated under the ruling of " the last of a ragged house long bereft of dignity". So, he decided to self-eliminate himself, but before that he wants to scare Gandalf and to check on his motives towards Faramir, what role to play he prepared for him. And sure enough, anxious to save his grant for peace in the after-war Gondor, Gandalf blew it out:” To me it would not seem that a Steward who faithfully surrenders his charge is diminished in love or honour…And at the least you shall not rob your son of his choice…”

[Serenoli]

Olmer, I'm a bit confused by exactly what you're trying to say... do you mean that you too think, like Denethor, that Aragorn should not have been king, and that Denethor or one of his sons would have made a better one?

And, you talk of Gandalf's ambitious game, but what exactly does Gandalf gain by such a game? It is Aragorn who, from a nameless Ranger becomes the King of Gondor. Gandalf simply disappears west when its all done, and loses the power of his ring as well.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Serenoli

And, you talk of Gandalf's ambitious game, but what exactly does Gandalf gain by such a game? It is Aragorn who, from a nameless Ranger becomes the King of Gondor. Gandalf simply disappears west when its all done, and loses the power of his ring as well.

Gandalf is a secret agent of the Powers of the West. When he returns to Valinor, he has to give an account of his mission. And that account should better be good.
Those of the wizards who failed are not even allowed to return back home! Gandalf saw it by himself when he was killed by the Barlog. He was kicked back to ME in no time.
As for losing the power of his Ring, Gandalf is the one of the wielders of the Three who has the least to suffer. Galadriel and Elrond loose their enchanted realms and the will to continue living in ME. Gandalf simply goes home, and remains as powerful as he once was, before he was sent on the Mission.

Want a laugh? Here is a funny story featuring Gandalf giving an account of his failure to Manwe.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2579515/1/

[brownjenkins]

Thanks so much for picking up my tremendous slack on this one Landroval! Well done!

I'll try to add to it when I can.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Landroval

2) Does Gandalf have the right to appoint Imrahil as ruler of the city? Would Imrahil had taken this decision himself, if he knew what happened to Denethor?

I think that even without Gandalf's appointing, Imrahil would eventually have taken control of the defenses, however it may have taken too much time. Gandalf seems a character that doesn't quite need a proper statute or authority like everybody else to settle or decide things in other countries. Many seem to accept his coming and going and advice without grumbling.

Imrahil was related to Denethor (wasn't Finduilas of the Dol Amroth-line?) so the task of command would in absence of both Denethor and Faramir have gone automatically to him.

Does the divided loyalty of the guards remind you of the curse of the noldor? Is it a valid comparison?

Yes and no, I think. The curse of the Noldor was due to the intrigues and distrust Morgoth had sown among them and it had much more time to fester before coming into full play at their departure from Valinor. Sauron's schemes mainly influenced only Denethor through the Palantir. De division of loyality among the guards at Rath Dinen is far more limited in time and number, and is nipped in the but far more earlier.

Denethor has a rather pure numenorean blood; doesn't he still have the right to end his life when he so wishes, even if he can't do it through willpower alone?

I could be wrong, but I thought the skill to lay down their life at their wish was only reserved for the royal line from Númenor. Denethor may have been of almost pure Numenorean descent, but perhaps not so much through the royal line started from Elros.

If he could indeed command the end of his life, he choose not to, but instead resorted to fire. It could be that the laying down one's life at will needed a certain steady state of mind. Considering Denethor was half mad by desperation at the end, he may not have possessed the skill anymore.

The steward knows of Aragorn and of Gandalf's plan concerning him - most likely through the use of his palantir. Did he found out about this sooner or later than Sauron did?

I think Denethor may have been aware of Aragorn and what he represented far more earlier than Sauron. Sauron seemed to know of the existance of an heir of Isildur, but without specifics. I got the impression he was quite caught unaware when Aragorn reveiled himself through the Palantir. I'd say the Thorongil episode must have been the determining factor.

Denethor is unwilling to relinquish his rule of the city to an heir of Isildur and wishes that the stewardship continues; doesn't this contradict his statement, quoted by Boromir in The window of the west, TTT, that "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice" for a steward to become king?

I'd say it depends. The line of Stewards ruled with all the powers of a king, except in the actual title of king. It suited them fine. I think the main reason why no steward could ever be king in a thousand years was mainly because of the beliefs of the people who would still prefer a king above anyone else. "To rule until the return of the King" may have been an empty phrase for the ruling stewards, but quite possibly they feared the common people would put more belief in it.

If Denethor knew of the incoming Umbar fleet, it is most likely that Sauron did too, and in more exact/realistic terms; why wasn't the host of Mordor more prepared to meet Aragorns' attack, seeing that Sauron and the nazgul can communicate rather instantly?

I doubt the nazgul and Sauron could communicate instantly. In the chapters concering Frodo and Sam you see several nazgul messagers passing by, so clearly a more physical mode of communication was needed. Communication through the Palantir obviously would require a second Palantir to receive, and I believe Sauron only ever managed to get his hands on one.

I also believe Sauron quite lost track of Aragorn in Rohan, before the latter took the Path of the Dead. Aragorn turning up at the coast and commandeering the Umbar fleet may have happened too rapidly for Sauron to pass this on to the armies near Minas Tirith.

And even in the possibility that Sauron did know the Umbar fleet had been taken, he may still have thought they could be handled. He didn't expect the Rohirrim to arrive so timely, he may have thought the Gondorean defenses were too demoralised by now to even consider a sortie, and he clearly didn't expect his darkness to break so rapidly. All these factors also determine the success of the army on the corsair fleet.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Did the Gondorians atempt to cure age? If so, did this accelerate the dimminishing of their lives (the clinging to life also dimminished the lifelenght of the numenoreans, albeit in a different context)?

I doubt they did, I suppose the Numenoreans may have tried, considering they had greater skill and knowledge and seemed more pressed to achieve immortality. So I doubt Gondoreans, as a rule, attempted to find a cure for old age. There may very well have been isolated occurances of scholars who did attempt, but evidentally came up empty-handed.

Did it puzzle you the way Faramir recognized Aragorn as his king?

For a moment it did, but then I decided he probably had put enough information together from his meeting with Frodo.

How much do you think Aragorn's kiss mattered in waking Eowyn up?

I fear very little. He did after all got Eomer to call her back from the shadows in the end.

Do Gandalf's words imply a patriarchical rohirrimic society, oppressing women rights (through our current worldview)?

I'm inclined to say yes. It didn't apparently surprise any of the Rohirrim that Eowyn could handle a sword and wear armour, this seemed to be accepted of the Rohirric women. But they appeared to draw a line at using it for self-defense. Women could wear weapons and armour at times of war, but only to defend it, not to go and meet the enemy. Eowyn was never named Marshall, and never led any warriors prior to the war, even though her skill and lineage could have allowed that. Even when Theoden left for Gondor, he didn't think of naming her leader, it was only after hearing that people trusted Eowyn and specifically wanted her, that he put her in charge. So it would appear the Rohirric women didn't go to battle-fields, even if they had the required martial skills.

or is Tolkien just plainly romantic here?

I'd say Tolkien's romantic spirit came shining through here.

Considering Aragorn's words about Merry, do you think that the (chief) meaning of grief into this world is to bring about wisdom?

In a way that seems to be a recurring theme in Tolkien's work. In Valinor, Nienna does just that, show people wisdom through grief.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I'll try to add to it when I can.

Not just a slacker, but a liar!

[The Gaffer]

Procrastinas in extremis